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Thread: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

  1. #171
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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I see where you are coming from, but that is a very human-centric and individual-preferences-centric viewpoint. It treats spiritual beliefs systems as if they were as changeable, and about as significant, as one's underwear.
    I disagree. The situation of the homosexual subject within religion is often one of debasement by fellow practitioners based something as arbitrary as who the person is attracted to (and in some cases, it can be outright harmful to the individual). Christianity teaches that homosexuality is a sin, which justifies practitioners to label those who engage in homosexuality as somehow wrong and worthy of punishment, yet no logical argument exists as to why the lifestyle is so deserved of condemnation. The best argument anyone can come up with is 'because my deity says so' - an explanation that is not only illogical, but just silly. In any case, this paves the way to view homosexuality as something which can be 'cured' if the individual voluntarily chooses, and if not, then that individual must not be allowed equal access to rights and privileges accorded heterosexuals. Any rational human being who happens to be homosexual would remove themselves from such a toxic ideology; after all, there is nothing at all wrong with their lifestyle. If a religion preaches such a silly notion, then the three options are to 1) change religions, 2) change the religion, or 3) leave religion entirely. I don't think that there is any more logical motivation to follow option #2 than there is #1 or #3. Only an irrational belief that one particular path of spirituality is 'the only way' could account for someone to believe option #2 is somehow more appealing than the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The case in question is that of a Baptist minister, and particularly whether he should continue in that capacity or not. Therefore to be properly addressed, it has to be addressed from that context: the standards and beliefs of Christians of the Baptist denominations.
    The problem isn't with the minister but with the religion. If you are going to teach that homosexuality is wrong and should be punished, either in this life or by a supernatural deity, then let's call it what it is - radicalism. There is zero room for such nonsense. You're a pretty rational fellow, Goshin. I seriously doubt that you take such a belief to be true. I think you believe that homosexuality is no more 'wrong' than heterosexuality, regardless of what your religion says.

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I disagree. The situation of the homosexual subject within religion is often one of debasement by fellow practitioners based something as arbitrary as who the person is attracted to (and in some cases, it can be outright harmful to the individual). Christianity teaches that homosexuality is a sin, which justifies practitioners to label those who engage in homosexuality as somehow wrong and worthy of punishment, yet no logical argument exists as to why the lifestyle is so deserved of condemnation. The best argument anyone can come up with is 'because my deity says so' - an explanation that is not only illogical, but just silly. In any case, this paves the way to view homosexuality as something which can be 'cured' if the individual voluntarily chooses, and if not, then that individual must not be allowed equal access to rights and privileges accorded heterosexuals. Any rational human being who happens to be homosexual would remove themselves from such a toxic ideology; after all, there is nothing at all wrong with their lifestyle. If a religion preaches such a silly notion, then the three options are to 1) change religions, 2) change the religion, or 3) leave religion entirely. I don't think that there is any more logical motivation to follow option #2 than there is #1 or #3. Only an irrational belief that one particular path of spirituality is 'the only way' could account for someone to believe option #2 is somehow more appealing than the others.



    The problem isn't with the minister but with the religion. If you are going to teach that homosexuality is wrong and should be punished, either in this life or by a supernatural deity, then let's call it what it is - radicalism. There is zero room for such nonsense. You're a pretty rational fellow, Goshin. I seriously doubt that you take such a belief to be true. I think you believe that homosexuality is no more 'wrong' than heterosexuality, regardless of what your religion says.
    As I have said before: I am a theologically-conservative Christian. I am therefore obligated to view homosexual behavior as a sin. This does not mean that I hate anyone or wish anyone to be persecuted. It is a religious matter. It does mean that I am forbidden by my beliefs to support gay marriage and similar issues. While I appreciate your compliment regarding my rationality, it doesn't alter the fact that I do take my religious beliefs seriously.

    I have nothing personal against gay people as people. I am simply obligated to view their lifestyle, if they actively engage in homosexual behaviors, as sinful. Sorry bud, that's just the way it is for me.

    Baptist churches are independent and run congregationally. His congregation will decide whether he will continue as their minster or not, according to their beliefs/conscience/preferences. While there might be some Baptist churches that are theologically-liberal enough to accept him in a ministerial capacity, I expect that would be rare. I think it is more likely that he will either step down or be required by his congregation to do so. Based on my religious beliefs, he should indeed retire from the ministery.

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  3. #173
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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    As I have said before: I am a theologically-conservative Christian. I am therefore obligated to view homosexual behavior as a sin. This does not mean that I hate anyone or wish anyone to be persecuted. It is a religious matter. It does mean that I am forbidden by my beliefs to support gay marriage and similar issues. While I appreciate your compliment regarding my rationality, it doesn't alter the fact that I do take my religious beliefs seriously.

    I have nothing personal against gay people as people. I am simply obligated to view their lifestyle, if they actively engage in homosexual behaviors, as sinful. Sorry bud, that's just the way it is for me.

    Baptist churches are independent and run congregationally. His congregation will decide whether he will continue as their minster or not, according to their beliefs/conscience/preferences. While there might be some Baptist churches that are theologically-liberal enough to accept him in a ministerial capacity, I expect that would be rare. I think it is more likely that he will either step down or be required by his congregation to do so. Based on my religious beliefs, he should indeed retire from the ministery.
    While I think your view is a misreading of the bible, I do agree that a pastor has to at least try to live what he preaches and tells his congregation to live.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    While I think your view is a misreading of the bible, I do agree that a pastor has to at least try to live what he preaches and tells his congregation to live.

    I honestly don't see how it could be. Even leaving aside the OT except for reference purposes, there's NT scripture that is quite clear on the matter. I've even asked top-rank posters on DP to prove me wrong within the context of scripture, assuring them that if they could do so I would alter my views on the subject. The only arguments they have put forward involve non-literalism and how it was a historical thing and is outdated now... but they can't quote scripture that refutes it. As a theologically-conservative Christian, I don't normally accept religious arguments that can't be backed up with scripture.

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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I honestly don't see how it could be. Even leaving aside the OT except for reference purposes, there's NT scripture that is quite clear on the matter. I've even asked top-rank posters on DP to prove me wrong within the context of scripture, assuring them that if they could do so I would alter my views on the subject. The only arguments they have put forward involve non-literalism and how it was a historical thing and is outdated now... but they can't quote scripture that refutes it. As a theologically-conservative Christian, I don't normally accept religious arguments that can't be backed up with scripture.
    I've read books on the matter. And I think the Bible says very little. Much in the old testiment is a mistranslation, refering to behavior related to a ceremonial observance and including heterosexual sex as well. And much in the new testement has been added. King James added a lot during a time of the believe in Naturalism, and many translation come from that effort, not wanting to diviate too far from the current accepted reading.

    I can't link the books at this point, but would suggest visiting your library, but this web site gives a fair is incomplete overview:

    Homosexuality and bisexuality

    BTW, I'm a Catholic who grew up Baptist.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I've read books on the matter. And I think the Bible says very little. Much in the old testiment is a mistranslation, refering to behavior related to a ceremonial observance and including heterosexual sex as well. And much in the new testement has been added. King James added a lot during a time of the believe in Naturalism, and many translation come from that effort, not wanting to diviate too far from the current accepted reading.

    I can't link the books at this point, but would suggest visiting your library, but this web site gives a fair is incomplete overview:

    Homosexuality and bisexuality
    New versions of the Bible are taken directly from the ancient records we do have. For example we know "thou shall not kill" is actually "thou shall not murder." So this is no longer an excuse to not follow the law as presented.

    Even with the mistakes made the morals stay the same. This is an amazing feet for many old books put together wouldn't you say?

    Jesus is very clear about what marriage is and supposed to be...

    Matthew 19: 3-6 3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?"
    4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,
    5 "and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
    6 "So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."


    With crystal clarity and no mistranslation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    BTW, I'm a Catholic who grew up Baptist.
    Well God bless you brother. I was raised Catholic and went non-denominational.
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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    As I have said before: I am a theologically-conservative Christian. I am therefore obligated to view homosexual behavior as a sin. This does not mean that I hate anyone or wish anyone to be persecuted. It is a religious matter. It does mean that I am forbidden by my beliefs to support gay marriage and similar issues. While I appreciate your compliment regarding my rationality, it doesn't alter the fact that I do take my religious beliefs seriously.

    I have nothing personal against gay people as people. I am simply obligated to view their lifestyle, if they actively engage in homosexual behaviors, as sinful. Sorry bud, that's just the way it is for me.
    Then I hope you can understand why I view religion warily. I can't fathom why someone would teach that well-adjusted human beings should be made out to be morally wrong based on something as arbitrary as their sexual preference. I think such teachings are not only silly, but inherently dangerous. We'll have to just agree to disagree I suppose, but it's a shame that we can't have religions teaching acceptance when it comes to homosexuality.

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    [QUOTE=Blackdog;1059072862]
    New versions of the Bible are taken directly from the ancient records we do have. For example we know "thou shall not kill" is actually "thou shall not murder." So this is no longer an excuse to not follow the law as presented.

    Even with the mistakes made the morals stay the same. This is an amazing feet for many old books put together wouldn't you say?

    Jesus is very clear about what marriage is and supposed to be...

    Matthew 19: 3-6 3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?"
    4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,
    5 "and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
    6 "So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."


    With crystal clarity and no mistranslation.
    But says nothing about homosexuality. The specific parts I speak of are the homosexuality parts. I do wish I had the books with me today, but it has been years.

    Well God bless you brother. I was raised Catholic and went non-denominational.
    Wem moved in opposite directions. Someday it might be fun to discuss our journey. But for today, God bless you as well my friend.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #179
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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I've read books on the matter. And I think the Bible says very little. Much in the old testiment is a mistranslation, refering to behavior related to a ceremonial observance and including heterosexual sex as well. And much in the new testement has been added. King James added a lot during a time of the believe in Naturalism, and many translation come from that effort, not wanting to diviate too far from the current accepted reading.

    I can't link the books at this point, but would suggest visiting your library, but this web site gives a fair is incomplete overview:

    Homosexuality and bisexuality

    BTW, I'm a Catholic who grew up Baptist.

    This is essentially an argument for the invalidity of the Bible as we currently possess it. That is a long argument I've engaged in here before and don't care to re-open. Suffice it to say I am not convinced.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  10. #180
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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    This is essentially an argument for the invalidity of the Bible as we currently possess it. That is a long argument I've engaged in here before and don't care to re-open. Suffice it to say I am not convinced.
    More that I see the Bible as the begining of the conversation and not the end of it. It has been around a long time, touched by man, who are imperfect. That said, my reading of it has convinced me that it was not intended to be absolute, the end of the search, but instead a beginging that we were to use to sart our search. During Jesus' time, homosexuality was everywhere, yet he speaks to in personally nowhere. I find that odd if it is the sin suggested.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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