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Thread: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Should I avoid the color of my hair and the length of my fingers while I am at it? When it is encoded into who we are, it is no longer something we can avoid, and I cannot think of a supernatural being would be sadistic enough to do that to his creatons.
    I understand where you're coming from, but the God that we have is the way that He is. I know that He should be easier to get along with and all the things that make Him hard to believe in in this day and time. I have all the same doubts about it as you do. Knowing what we know today and that gays have no choice really makes it tough to think, "oh they just need to control themselves". I'm thinking that obviously God gives some people more "problems to bear" than others, like some people have terrible handicaps, some get terrible diseases, some people have really unlikeable personalities etc. etc. Not being able to have sex with the person you love is a tough one, but it happens to most of us at least once in our lifetimes if you think about it, but still, we do get to eventually have sex with someone we love, or like, and then maybe not, it's just how our lives happen to unfold. I look at the world and all the children that are starving, and think, "how can God let this happen". There are so many questions that have no answers. Look at the crucifiction. Why in the world would God want that to happen so we could go to heaven and be with Him? Why didn't He just let bygones be bygones?
    I'm hoping in the end God takes everybody, and the Bible and religion were just there to keep us on our toes, cause if things go the way of the Catholics, I probably won't be gettin' in.
    "It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens." Woody Allen.

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Wow - I know that, at times, I start some pretty controversial threads, but I honestly had no idea that this thread would garner such emotional reactions. Now, if someone wants to troll me, and call me a retard for stating this, after the reactions that have been expressed in this thread, I guess I would have to agree with the troll - I am a retard - LOL.

    Seriously, here is my take on the whole issue:

    1) To those on one side, who are saying that homosexuality is not sinful, I would have to honestly disagree. If you believe the Bible, which is purported to be God's word, being gay IS a sin. There can be no argument here.

    2) To those on the other side, who are judging the pastor so harshly, with all due respect, you are also wrong. Homosexuality may be a sin, but so is lust, gluttony, greed, cheating on your taxes, not being willing to help the poor, cussing, supporting wars that did not have to be, in which innocents are slaughtered, putting politics above religion, and a kajillion other practices which, according to the Bible, will result in hell for those of us who practice these sins. So, who is going to hell? Each and every one of us, that's who. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". This, of course, is why Christ died for us. Without sin, Christ would never have been needed.

    3) So what about the preacher who came out as gay? Should he still be the head of the church? Why not? Since we are all sinners, who is going to be left to teach the love of Jesus Christ, if none of us is worthy to teach it?

    4) The preacher coming out, and admitting that he is a sinner, in the face of so much "Do as I say, not as I do" hypocrisy, IMHO, was a courageous act, even if done after many years. I am sure that the preacher knew what was going to be coming his way, in the form of blowback, but he came out anyways. Again, IMHO, he is just the sort of person that I would want to head a church, and teach the love of Christ. He knows he is a sinner, but he is not getting up on his high horse and telling everybody else how they are going to hell, while being a sinner. That is in stark contrast to those who want to use the rule of law to regulate the lives of everybody else while, at the same time, not being willing to admit that they are sinners themselves. That is in even starker contrast to the Fred Phelps' of this world, and those who believe that God gives them the right to shoot abortion doctors. This pastor's honesty is refreshing, and yes, very much like the teachings of Christ. Once again, there is NO sinless person in this world, other than one who died a couple of millenia ago. He died for our sins, and we are all sinners. According to the Bible, that is the key to salvation. What is not the key to salvation is pointing out the mote in the eyes of others, while ignoring the beam in our own eye.

    5) Therefore, I stand by what I originally posted. To one side - I agree with your assessment on what sin is, but disagree with your assessment that the pastor should relinquish his position. To the other side, I agree that there is much hypocrisy, but homosexuality is still a sin, as is any other sin.

    6) However, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Per the Bible, absolutely NONE of us has this right. IMHO, the pastor is very qualified to preach from his pulpit - Much more qualified than those who demand that he step down, for he has been true to the word of God, by stating the obvious - That he is a sinner - When even the obvious is light years out of reach to many of his detractors, who would rather point a finger at him instead of themselves, which is where their own finger of blame should really be pointed.

    7) Once again, God bless you, pastor.
    Last edited by danarhea; 10-31-10 at 12:51 PM.
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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    I have no idea why folks subject themselves to a particular religion whose deity claims that you are commiting a bad act when you live an otherwise productive, happy lifestyle. If you are homosexual and your religion tells you that you are engaging in so-called 'sinful acts' by shacking up with a same-sex partner, then it's time to chuck that ideology and move on to one more that's accepting. And if one can't be found, ignore them all or start your own.

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    2) To those on the other side, who are judging the pastor so harshly, with all due respect, you are also wrong. Homosexuality may be a sin, but so is lust, gluttony, greed, cheating on your taxes, not being willing to help the poor, cussing, supporting wars that did not have to be, in which innocents are slaughtered, putting politics above religion, and a kajillion other practices which, according to the Bible, will result in hell for those of us who practice these sins. So, who is going to hell? Each and every one of us, that's who. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". This, of course, is why Christ died for us. Without sin, Christ would never have been needed.
    Leaders of the church are to be above reproach...

    Titus 1:7Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.

    Tim. 3:1 1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    3) So what about the preacher who came out as gay? Should he still be the head of the church? Why not? Since we are all sinners, who is going to be left to teach the love of Jesus Christ, if none of us is worthy to teach it?
    He should step down according to the teachings of Christ. This includes many other "leaders" who have made mistakes in public. It is not about forgiveness, it is about leadership and his role in the church.

    He knew this would be a huge contraversy, no way he could not have known. Yet he did this.

    It was brave, but that really does not matter. We certainly can judge his abuility to be a rightious leader in the church. What we are not to judge is his heart. That is between him and God, as I have said.

    He is no longer above reproach.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Leaders of the church are to be above reproach...

    Titus 1:7Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.

    Tim. 3:1 1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.



    He should step down according to the teachings of Christ. This includes many other "leaders" who have made mistakes in public. It is not about forgiveness, it is about leadership and his role in the church.

    He knew this would be a huge contraversy, no way he could not have known. Yet he did this.

    It was brave, but that really does not matter. We certainly can judge his abuility to be a rightious leader in the church. What we are not to judge is his heart. That is between him and God, as I have said.

    He is no longer above reproach.
    And neither is anybody else, which is my whole point.
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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    And neither is anybody else, which is my whole point.
    Plenty of pastors etc are above reproach and blameless. Has nothing to do with being sinless, has to do with being honest from the beginning. He was a liar from the start as he knew. This more than anything else makes him no longer eligible according to scripture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Wow - I know that, at times, I start some pretty controversial threads, but I honestly had no idea that this thread would garner such emotional reactions. Now, if someone wants to troll me, and call me a retard for stating this, after the reactions that have been expressed in this thread, I guess I would have to agree with the troll - I am a retard - LOL.

    Seriously, here is my take on the whole issue:

    1) To those on one side, who are saying that homosexuality is not sinful, I would have to honestly disagree. If you believe the Bible, which is purported to be God's word, being gay IS a sin. There can be no argument here.

    2) To those on the other side, who are judging the pastor so harshly, with all due respect, you are also wrong. Homosexuality may be a sin, but so is lust, gluttony, greed, cheating on your taxes, not being willing to help the poor, cussing, supporting wars that did not have to be, in which innocents are slaughtered, putting politics above religion, and a kajillion other practices which, according to the Bible, will result in hell for those of us who practice these sins. So, who is going to hell? Each and every one of us, that's who. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". This, of course, is why Christ died for us. Without sin, Christ would never have been needed.

    3) So what about the preacher who came out as gay? Should he still be the head of the church? Why not? Since we are all sinners, who is going to be left to teach the love of Jesus Christ, if none of us is worthy to teach it?

    4) The preacher coming out, and admitting that he is a sinner, in the face of so much "Do as I say, not as I do" hypocrisy, IMHO, was a courageous act, even if done after many years. I am sure that the preacher knew what was going to be coming his way, in the form of blowback, but he came out anyways. Again, IMHO, he is just the sort of person that I would want to head a church, and teach the love of Christ. He knows he is a sinner, but he is not getting up on his high horse and telling everybody else how they are going to hell, while being a sinner. That is in stark contrast to those who want to use the rule of law to regulate the lives of everybody else while, at the same time, not being willing to admit that they are sinners themselves. That is in even starker contrast to the Fred Phelps' of this world, and those who believe that God gives them the right to shoot abortion doctors. This pastor's honesty is refreshing, and yes, very much like the teachings of Christ. Once again, there is NO sinless person in this world, other than one who died a couple of millenia ago. He died for our sins, and we are all sinners. According to the Bible, that is the key to salvation. What is not the key to salvation is pointing out the mote in the eyes of others, while ignoring the beam in our own eye.

    5) Therefore, I stand by what I originally posted. To one side - I agree with your assessment on what sin is, but disagree with your assessment that the pastor should relinquish his position. To the other side, I agree that there is much hypocrisy, but homosexuality is still a sin, as is any other sin.

    6) However, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Per the Bible, absolutely NONE of us has this right. IMHO, the pastor is very qualified to preach from his pulpit - Much more qualified than those who demand that he step down, for he has been true to the word of God, by stating the obvious - That he is a sinner - When even the obvious is light years out of reach to many of his detractors, who would rather point a finger at him instead of themselves, which is where their own finger of blame should really be pointed.

    7) Once again, God bless you, pastor.

    While your post is carefully considered and thoughtful, you're leaving aside a number of points, Dana.

    In the ultimate spiritual sense, sin is sin yes. All sin is seperation from God, without the intercession of Jesus' Grace.

    This does not mean that there are not distinctions made in scripture, where some sins are more strongly condemned than others. Adultery and habitual drunkenness, for example... and also homosexual practices. None of which are acceptible in a minister.

    This brings us to another question: is this something he did once long ago? Something he did a LOT, long ago? Something he did RECENTLY a lot? Something he's doing RIGHT NOW and intends to continue doing?

    Offhand I don't know of any Christian denomination that doesn't make the distinction between falling into temptation once or twice, repenting and trying to forsake one's sin, as compared to an ongoing and continual state of sin that one has no intention of forsaking. That latter sort of thing will even get ordinary members "churched" in many Baptist churches, let alone a minister.

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I have no idea why folks subject themselves to a particular religion whose deity claims that you are commiting a bad act when you live an otherwise productive, happy lifestyle. If you are homosexual and your religion tells you that you are engaging in so-called 'sinful acts' by shacking up with a same-sex partner, then it's time to chuck that ideology and move on to one more that's accepting. And if one can't be found, ignore them all or start your own.

    I see where you are coming from, but that is a very human-centric and individual-preferences-centric viewpoint. It treats spiritual beliefs systems as if they were as changeable, and about as significant, as one's underwear.

    The case in question is that of a Baptist minister, and particularly whether he should continue in that capacity or not. Therefore to be properly addressed, it has to be addressed from that context: the standards and beliefs of Christians of the Baptist denominations.
    Last edited by Goshin; 10-31-10 at 01:54 PM.

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I see where you are coming from, but that is a very human-centric and individual-preferences-centric viewpoint. It treats spiritual beliefs systems as if they were as changeable, and about as significant, as one's underwear.

    The case in question is that of a Baptist minister, and particularly whether he should continue in that capacity or not. Therefore to be properly addressed, it has to be addressed from that context: the standards and beliefs of Christians of the Baptist denominations.
    Man my response was almost word for word the same. So I decided to let yours stand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Megachurch Pastor Comes Out Of Closet

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Offhand I don't know of any Christian denomination that doesn't make the distinction between falling into temptation once or twice, repenting and trying to forsake one's sin, as compared to an ongoing and continual state of sin that one has no intention of forsaking. That latter sort of thing will even get ordinary members "churched" in many Baptist churches, let alone a minister.
    I think you're getting your theology a little backwards. I know the Catholic position at least is that we are always in a state of ongoing and continual sin, no matter what we do. We can't really even help it, it's the taint of the original sin. I think most Christian denominations are in agreement on original sin, but I can't really speak to Protestants.

    So no, there really is no distinction between an ongoing sinner and somebody who "sins once or twice" and it's a fallacy to think such a thing as "sinning once or twice" or avoiding sin is possible.

    To the issue of whether homosexual relations is sin, it is. Just like any other form of sex outside of marriage and for nonprocreative purposes is a sin (and even then you aren't supposed to enjoy it, enjoying it is a sin). The ideal state of Christianity is perfect celibacy, even for the laity.

    So why treat homosexuality like it is some special brand of sin? It's no different than a straight couple living together out of wedlock, or a married couple having sex with condom. Who cares? As Christians we should live and let live with homosexuality as we do with all these other forms of sin that we tacitly accept. Anything less is hypocrisy.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 10-31-10 at 02:23 PM.

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