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Thread: Poll: Most US troops OK with gays in the military

  1. #161
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    Re: Poll: Most US troops OK with gays in the military

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's exactly right and if a soldier's membership in the KKK doesn't harm the service, then he/she should be able to do so.
    I provided you with where the harm comes from. And just like being gay, at this time, being a KKK member "in the closet" will only get you thrown out if it comes to the attention of others. In fact, there are a lot of guys who are prejudice in the military. The difference is that being a member of the KKK means declaring that you don't like nor trust non-whites. Being homosexual means, and even just declaring it, only means that you like members of the same sex. There is a big difference between the two.

    Question. Which would you rather defending you, an openly gay man or an man who has declared that he doesn't like nor trust anyone who isn't the same race as he is, which isn't your race? You must choose one.


    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Some people think that gays in the military would have the same negative effect as membership in a racial hate group. I guess they're all homophobes, racist and bigots?
    Most are just ignorant. They have heard that gays will negatively affect morale, discipline and unit cohesion so much they believe it. Some might be fueled by personal discomfort with gays and some might be fueled by personal beliefs that being gay is wrong and others just don't like change. There is no proof that gays have any negative effect, and to speak as being for gays can get a guy ostracized. In fact, from what I have observed, most Marines just go along with the group that they hang with on most issues. So, if the more dominant members of the group say they don't care if gays serve openly, as long as they do their job, then the others go along, no matter their own feelings about gays. If the more dominant marines say that they can't stand gays, the others just go along with this too, no matter how they really feel. It is group mentality.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Right, again. Very good. That's why a service member attending a klan rally, out of uniform, should be ok.
    No. If he is in support of the actual klan (not just in support of their existence), then he is declaring that he supports their ideals and principles, which are in contention with good order and discipline. We know from experience that people who support prejudice and distrust of others due to their race, religion, etc. are going to cause actual problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You apparantly missed something. The harm in that case was caused by the other guy and his problems with the gay guy. Which means the other guy is causing the problems, not the gay guy. If you are trying to argue that someone should be kicked out because another person has a problem with them and beats them up, then we would have to kick out everyone who someone else may have an issue with, which would pretty much leave us with one person left in the military. Let's hope this person doesn't have multiple personality disorder, because if they do, our military would be completely gone.
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  2. #162
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    Re: Poll: Most US troops OK with gays in the military

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I provided you with where the harm comes from. And just like being gay, at this time, being a KKK member "in the closet" will only get you thrown out if it comes to the attention of others. In fact, there are a lot of guys who are prejudice in the military. The difference is that being a member of the KKK means declaring that you don't like nor trust non-whites. Being homosexual means, and even just declaring it, only means that you like members of the same sex. There is a big difference between the two.

    Question. Which would you rather defending you, an openly gay man or an man who has declared that he doesn't like nor trust anyone who isn't the same race as he is, which isn't your race? You must choose one.




    Most are just ignorant. They have heard that gays will negatively affect morale, discipline and unit cohesion so much they believe it. Some might be fueled by personal discomfort with gays and some might be fueled by personal beliefs that being gay is wrong and others just don't like change. There is no proof that gays have any negative effect, and to speak as being for gays can get a guy ostracized. In fact, from what I have observed, most Marines just go along with the group that they hang with on most issues. So, if the more dominant members of the group say they don't care if gays serve openly, as long as they do their job, then the others go along, no matter their own feelings about gays. If the more dominant marines say that they can't stand gays, the others just go along with this too, no matter how they really feel. It is group mentality.



    No. If he is in support of the actual klan (not just in support of their existence), then he is declaring that he supports their ideals and principles, which are in contention with good order and discipline. We know from experience that people who support prejudice and distrust of others due to their race, religion, etc. are going to cause actual problems.



    You apparantly missed something. The harm in that case was caused by the other guy and his problems with the gay guy. Which means the other guy is causing the problems, not the gay guy. If you are trying to argue that someone should be kicked out because another person has a problem with them and beats them up, then we would have to kick out everyone who someone else may have an issue with, which would pretty much leave us with one person left in the military. Let's hope this person doesn't have multiple personality disorder, because if they do, our military would be completely gone.
    It's a constitutional right to be a member of the KKK/Black Panthers. Why aren't you supporting those rights, the way you support the right for gays to serve openl?

    Is it because you support the rights of those with whom you agree and **** everyone else's rights, with whom you don't agree with?

    You seem to be suggesting that our service members aren't grownup enough to ignore what another soldier does while he's off duty. How can you denegrate our veterans that way? Do you think that little of them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #163
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    Re: Poll: Most US troops OK with gays in the military

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's a constitutional right to be a member of the KKK/Black Panthers. Why aren't you supporting those rights, the way you support the right for gays to serve openl?

    Is it because you support the rights of those with whom you agree and **** everyone else's rights, with whom you don't agree with?

    You seem to be suggesting that our service members aren't grownup enough to ignore what another soldier does while he's off duty. How can you denegrate our veterans that way? Do you think that little of them?
    I support everyone's right to join the military. I want what's best for the military as well. I do not support doing things that will actually do harm to the military however. Gays in the military, from my own experience, will not harm the military. You have no proof that they will cause harm. Any kind of bias or unwarranted mistrust against fellow servicemembers does do harm. There is proof from the past and currently even with this current argument. I believe you posted a link that supports this. It is quite simple.

    I think you are the one who has the issues with some of our fellow servicemembers and have zero understanding of what actually causes problems with morale, discipline, and unit cohesion within the ranks.

    BTW, are you ever going to address any of my points or just continue to make unfounded and, quite frankly, absolutely insulting accusations against me?
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  4. #164
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    Re: Poll: Most US troops OK with gays in the military

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I support everyone's right to join the military. I want what's best for the military as well. I do not support doing things that will actually do harm to the military however. Gays in the military, from my own experience, will not harm the military. You have no proof that they will cause harm. Any kind of bias or unwarranted mistrust against fellow servicemembers does do harm. There is proof from the past and currently even with this current argument. I believe you posted a link that supports this. It is quite simple.

    I think you are the one who has the issues with some of our fellow servicemembers and have zero understanding of what actually causes problems with morale, discipline, and unit cohesion within the ranks.

    BTW, are you ever going to address any of my points or just continue to make unfounded and, quite frankly, absolutely insulting accusations against me?
    So, basically, what you're saying, is that our service members aren't professional enough, to put the mission ahead of their personal feelings about someone else's politics? Or, that they're not professional enough to put their politics aside, in the interest of the mission?

    Why do you hold our military in such low regard? It's offensive that you think so little of their ability to be professional soldiers.

    I think you are the one who has the issues with some of our fellow servicemembers and have zero understanding of what actually causes problems with morale, discipline, and unit cohesion within the ranks.
    I was an infantryman for 12 years, attaining the Rank of E-7(P). The, "(P)", is for, "promotable". Which means I had completed the First Seargant's course and was waiting to be pegged for a 1SG slot. My resume includes, airborne school, pathfinder school air assault school, jungle warfare school, artic warfare school, the Bradley master gunner's course. Trust me, I know exactly how important morale and unit cohesion are.

    Your obvius disregard for the argument I'm making, shows that I've forgotten more about unit cohesion, morale and leadership than you'll ever know.
    Last edited by apdst; 11-04-10 at 11:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #165
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    Re: Poll: Most US troops OK with gays in the military

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    So, basically, what you're saying, is that our service members aren't professional enough, to put the mission ahead of their personal feelings about someone else's politics? Or, that they're not professional enough to put their politics aside, in the interest of the mission?

    Why do you hold our military in such low regard? It's offensive that you think so little of their ability to be professional soldiers.
    Apparently some of them can't, since we still have DADT. This says way more about what feelings some servicemembers cannot put aside.

    Besides, if those guys could put those feelings aside to do their job, then they wouldn't feel that it was necessary to violate rules that keep them from declaring themselves a member of such organizations.

    However, as far as homosexuals are concerned, they are comparable to how heterosexuals are treated, not people who are violating controversial political club membership rules. Heterosexuals are allowed in the military to have feelings and express those feelings toward people that they find attractive, providing that those feelings are within legal consent rules and fraternization policies along with rules about where these feelings are allowed to be expressed. Homosexuals should be allowed the same thing. Homosexuality is on par with heterosexuality. I am sick of arguing this stupid argument about how DADT compares to policies that prevent servicemembers from joining the KKK or terrorist organizations. They are not the same thing and I have already given you plenty of things to show you why.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I was an infantryman for 12 years, attaining the Rank of E-7(P). The, "(P)", is for, "promotable". Which means I had completed the First Seargant's course and was waiting to be pegged for a 1SG slot. My resume includes, airborne school, pathfinder school air assault school, jungle warfare school, artic warfare school, the Bradley master gunner's course. Trust me, I know exactly how important morale and unit cohesion are.

    Your obvius disregard for the argument I'm making, shows that I've forgotten more about unit cohesion, morale and leadership than you'll ever know.
    So you have served with openly gay men, and somehow their being openly gay caused problems with unit cohesion or discipline? I highly doubt it.

    BTW, just because you have time in the service and/or military schools does not qualify you to know that openly gay men serving will cause problems. I bet you any amount of money that sometime during your career, you served with gay men that were good soldiers, whether you knew/believed they were gay or not. Because a person's sexuality is not what makes them a good military servicemember. That would be their ability to do their job. And they shouldn't have to hide part of who they are, if no one has proof that that part of them will not actually cause problems.

    And, you have been ignoring my argument much more than any part I have ignored from yours. And I have served as well. I have served with openly gay guys. I know that their sexuality was not a problem at all.
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    Re: Poll: Most US troops OK with gays in the military

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Apparently some of them can't, since we still have DADT. This says way more about what feelings some servicemembers cannot put aside.

    Besides, if those guys could put those feelings aside to do their job, then they wouldn't feel that it was necessary to violate rules that keep them from declaring themselves a member of such organizations.

    However, as far as homosexuals are concerned, they are comparable to how heterosexuals are treated, not people who are violating controversial political club membership rules. Heterosexuals are allowed in the military to have feelings and express those feelings toward people that they find attractive, providing that those feelings are within legal consent rules and fraternization policies along with rules about where these feelings are allowed to be expressed. Homosexuals should be allowed the same thing. Homosexuality is on par with heterosexuality. I am sick of arguing this stupid argument about how DADT compares to policies that prevent servicemembers from joining the KKK or terrorist organizations. They are not the same thing and I have already given you plenty of things to show you why.



    So you have served with openly gay men, and somehow their being openly gay caused problems with unit cohesion or discipline? I highly doubt it.

    BTW, just because you have time in the service and/or military schools does not qualify you to know that openly gay men serving will cause problems. I bet you any amount of money that sometime during your career, you served with gay men that were good soldiers, whether you knew/believed they were gay or not. Because a person's sexuality is not what makes them a good military servicemember. That would be their ability to do their job. And they shouldn't have to hide part of who they are, if no one has proof that that part of them will not actually cause problems.

    And, you have been ignoring my argument much more than any part I have ignored from yours. And I have served as well. I have served with openly gay guys. I know that their sexuality was not a problem at all.
    I've served with full blown racists that were good soldiers, too. As a platoon seargant, do you think that I gived a **** if that high speed, low drag heart breakin' life takin' troop hated my guts, because I'm black? One of the best soldiers I ever had under my charge was a full blown nigger hatin' racist. He wore his, "888", tatoo with pride. He was in my platoon when I was with 1/26 in Macedonia and later in Kosovo. You think anyone cared one bit that he was a full bore hater? Hell no!! All we care about was his desire to kill the enemy and win the battle. Trust me, if the **** had hit the fan, he would have been a part of that 5% that inflicted 80% of the casualties upon the enemy.

    IMO, if my troops would have had to choose between an outright racist and an openly gay soldier, the racist would have won out.

    But, according to you, a solid infantryman like that doesn't have the right to be in the service.

    I'm thinking your own personal experience doesn't do **** to support your argument. See much time in the field as a Navy nuke?

    Your hypocritical double standard certainly doesn't do anything to bolster your comments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Poll: Most US troops OK with gays in the military

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Pentagon poll: Most U.S. troops are OK with gays in military | battlecreekenquirer.com | The Enquirer

    An internal Pentagon study finds that most U.S. troops and their families don't care whether gays are allowed to serve openly and think the "don't ask, don't tell" policy could be dropped, the Associated Press reports, quoting officials familiar with its findings.

    Now that the results of the Pentagon study are known I'm anxious to hear what the anti-gay folk have to say about ending DADT.

    I'm particularly interested in hearing what Navy Pride has to say, especially since he has repeatedly said that if the men/women of the military were ok with gays, that he would be ok with gays in the military as well.

    Lets hear what you have to say about the results of the Pentagon poll.
    What I have to say is that in no way do I think you actually give a crap about the opinions of those in the military and it would mean nothing to you if they responded differently. So, this challenge to those who disagree with you is facile.
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    Re: Poll: Most US troops OK with gays in the military

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    IMO, if my troops would have had to choose between an outright racist and an openly gay soldier, the racist would have won out.
    Somehow I think the black troops might have preferred the openly gay man.

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    Re: Poll: Most US troops OK with gays in the military

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Somehow I think the black troops might have preferred the openly gay man.
    And, from my actual experience in the service, I'll say that you're wrong.

    Was your experience in the service any different? Oh, wait...
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #170
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    Re: Poll: Most US troops OK with gays in the military

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I've served with full blown racists that were good soldiers, too. As a platoon seargant, do you think that I gived a **** if that high speed, low drag heart breakin' life takin' troop hated my guts, because I'm black? One of the best soldiers I ever had under my charge was a full blown nigger hatin' racist. He wore his, "888", tatoo with pride. He was in my platoon when I was with 1/26 in Macedonia and later in Kosovo. You think anyone cared one bit that he was a full bore hater? Hell no!! All we care about was his desire to kill the enemy and win the battle. Trust me, if the **** had hit the fan, he would have been a part of that 5% that inflicted 80% of the casualties upon the enemy.

    IMO, if my troops would have had to choose between an outright racist and an openly gay soldier, the racist would have won out.

    But, according to you, a solid infantryman like that doesn't have the right to be in the service.

    I'm thinking your own personal experience doesn't do **** to support your argument. See much time in the field as a Navy nuke?

    Your hypocritical double standard certainly doesn't do anything to bolster your comments.
    I never actually said I had a problem with racists serving, as long as they can do their job. However, I definitely see where they are a bigger problem then gays serving openly. An openly gay man is not causing any harm to you or your soldiers whatsoever.

    It is your responsibility to show how a gay man serving openly would cause problems, that are not actually problems that are due to the intolerance of the other personnel. I have pointed out how a racist can cause problems. Where is your proof?

    You haven't actually addressed any of my comments. You have simply tried to insult me and repeated your own argument, with little to support it, over and over again.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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