Page 9 of 16 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 152

Thread: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

  1. #81
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:49 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,501

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    More than that, do you routinely catalog for your family the bad things that your friends do?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  2. #82
    Bohemian Revolutionary
    Demon of Light's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Seen
    03-07-17 @ 12:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    5,095

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I am somewhat disgusted by the amount of support that is being offered for people who are doing everything in their power to undermine the US.
    How does "evidence of state sanctioned torture by the Iraqi government" and "evidence of Iraqi government death squads" undermine the U.S.? Mind you, they would be going bat**** insane even if that is all Wikileaks released. Rhetoric being used now was also used when Wikileaks showed a video of a helicopter attack that killed two Reuters journalists. We have all seen public videos the military puts out of successful military operations that are trumpeted as successes for freedom and democracy. This video revealed no more about procedure than what was already publicly available, yet it was because of this video that Bradley Manning was arrested.

    And that's not really the same thing as having a system of classifying information, so I don't see the point.
    It boggles my mind. It is almost like people have forgotten about Watergate, forgotten about MKULTRA, and forgotten about all the other blatant abuses of authority committed by our government. What do you think they used classification for in these cases? "National security" is one of the oldest cop-outs used by abusive governments.

    With good reason.
    Certainly to the people in authority it seems like a good reason. Just like someone might feel there is a good reason to bribe a rape victim to avoid public outcry.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

  3. #83
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:49 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,501

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    How does "evidence of state sanctioned torture by the Iraqi government" and "evidence of Iraqi government death squads" undermine the U.S.? Mind you, they would be going bat**** insane even if that is all Wikileaks released. Rhetoric being used now was also used when Wikileaks showed a video of a helicopter attack that killed two Reuters journalists. We have all seen public videos the military puts out of successful military operations that are trumpeted as successes for freedom and democracy. This video revealed no more about procedure than what was already publicly available, yet it was because of this video that Bradley Manning was arrested.
    If it was already public information, then what good is it? Why is anyone interested?



    It boggles my mind. It is almost like people have forgotten about Watergate, forgotten about MKULTRA, and forgotten about all the other blatant abuses of authority committed by our government. What do you think they used classification for in these cases? "National security" is one of the oldest cop-outs used by abusive governments.
    So you think that "national security" is always a smokescreen?


    Certainly to the people in authority it seems like a good reason. Just like someone might feel there is a good reason to bribe a rape victim to avoid public outcry.
    And, you know, ACTUAL good reason . . .
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  4. #84
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    How does "evidence of state sanctioned torture by the Iraqi government" and "evidence of Iraqi government death squads" undermine the U.S.?
    Because the "evidence" is part of classified documents that were released. People who don't like the US will seize on this information and blame the US for what Iraq did - just look at the people posting in this thread.

    Rhetoric being used now was also used when Wikileaks showed a video of a helicopter attack that killed two Reuters journalists. We have all seen public videos the military puts out of successful military operations that are trumpeted as successes for freedom and democracy. This video revealed no more about procedure than what was already publicly available, yet it was because of this video that Bradley Manning was arrested.
    No, he was arrested because he broke the law and leaked hundreds of thousands of classified documents to a group seeking to undermine the US.

    It boggles my mind. It is almost like people have forgotten about Watergate, forgotten about MKULTRA, and forgotten about all the other blatant abuses of authority committed by our government. What do you think they used classification for in these cases? "National security" is one of the oldest cop-outs used by abusive governments.
    And it boggles my mind that some people can't seem to understand that just because governments have done some bad stuff, that doesn't mean that the government should never be allowed to classify anything.


    Certainly to the people in authority it seems like a good reason. Just like someone might feel there is a good reason to bribe a rape victim to avoid public outcry.
    Not wanting diplomatic cables to be leaked = paying hush money to a rape victim. Yea, that sounds right.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  5. #85
    Sage
    gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    uk
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:03 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,365

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    To answer the question. I do not routinely catalogue what friends and family are doing wrong. But, I'm sure the Police will, and punish accordingly.
    The one leak [which includes video evidence] that stands out for me is the Apache with the call sign, Crazy-horse who blatantly opens up on unarmed personnel. I know the coalition partners would have a hard time justifying 'engaging' unarmed personnel irrespective of events leading up to that point. The UK has pretty strict 'rules of engagement' basically no weapon you should not engage.
    I can appreciate the US government stance on these events not showing the full context or story but, for me, this one example looks hard to justify under any circumstances. That said, we must also consider the human element, that being in the heat of battle events are not necessarily as black and white.

    Paul
    RIP THE EUROPEAN FORUM 2016

  6. #86
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by gunner View Post
    To answer the question. I do not routinely catalogue what friends and family are doing wrong. But, I'm sure the Police will, and punish accordingly.
    The one leak [which includes video evidence] that stands out for me is the Apache with the call sign, Crazy-horse who blatantly opens up on unarmed personnel. I know the coalition partners would have a hard time justifying 'engaging' unarmed personnel irrespective of events leading up to that point. The UK has pretty strict 'rules of engagement' basically no weapon you should not engage.
    I can appreciate the US government stance on these events not showing the full context or story but, for me, this one example looks hard to justify under any circumstances. That said, we must also consider the human element, that being in the heat of battle events are not necessarily as black and white.

    Paul
    This is off-topic, but if you're referring to the wikilieaks video, I don't think we saw the same things. I saw a helicoptor opening fire on people who were clearly armed.

    The Jawa Report: Case Closed: Weapons Clearly Seen on Video of Reuters Reporters Killed in Iraq (UPDATED & Bumped Yet Again)
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  7. #87
    Bohemian Revolutionary
    Demon of Light's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Seen
    03-07-17 @ 12:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    5,095

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Because the "evidence" is part of classified documents that were released. People who don't like the US will seize on this information and blame the US for what Iraq did - just look at the people posting in this thread.
    We put the government in power, gave it protection, and covered up its countless misdeeds. Like it or not, the U.S. owns what the Iraqi government did on our watch.

    No, he was arrested because he broke the law and leaked hundreds of thousands of classified documents to a group seeking to undermine the US.
    He was arrested for releasing the video. All they had concerning the documents at the time was that he possessed them, not that he had leaked them. Let's not act like he would have gotten off fine if they could only prove he leaked the video.

    And it boggles my mind that some people can't seem to understand that just because governments have done some bad stuff, that doesn't mean that the government should never be allowed to classify anything.
    Some things should be classified. However, a great deal that is classified should not be classified.

    Not wanting diplomatic cables to be leaked = paying hush money to a rape victim. Yea, that sounds right.
    Well, that depends on the content. Of course, the analogy is legitimate either way. It is about concealing abuses to avoid consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This is off-topic, but if you're referring to the wikilieaks video, I don't think we saw the same things. I saw a helicoptor opening fire on people who were clearly armed.
    The beginning is not the real abuse, neither is it the reason Manning leaked the video. It is the part after that when a Good Samaritan's van is blown up killing him, all because he was trying to evacuate one of the wounded journalists. That, my friend, is a war crime.
    Last edited by Demon of Light; 10-23-10 at 05:31 AM.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

  8. #88
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    We put the government in power, gave it protection, and covered up its countless misdeeds. Like it or not, the U.S. owns what the Iraqi government did on our watch.
    And we also transferred sovereignty back to Iraq. Like it or not, we're neither responsible for nor able to do anything about the things that the Iraqi government chose to do after that.

    He was arrested for releasing the video. All they had concerning the documents at the time was that he possessed them, not that he had leaked them. Let's not act like he would have gotten off fine if they could only prove he leaked the video.
    I'm not sure what you're arguing here. He was arrested because he stole classified information and leaked it to wikileaks. The fact that the arrest was not made until after the first video was published does not make a bit of difference.

    Some things should be classified. However, a great deal that is classified should not be classified.
    What's your point? Unless you just want to quibble about where to draw the line, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

    Well, that depends on the content. Of course, the analogy is legitimate either way. It is about concealing abuses to avoid consequences.
    Not really. Rape is a serious felony committed by an individual person that serves no purpose for the state. Saying something confidential in a diplomatic cable is entirely legal, is performed by the state, and serves an important purpose in advancing the interests of the state. There is no way to analogize the two.

    The beginning is not the real abuse, neither is it the reason Manning leaked the video. It is the part after that when a Good Samaritan's van is blown up killing him, all because he was trying to evacuate one of the wounded journalists. That, my friend, is a war crime.
    Another example of confusing intent and result. Unless you have the intent to lie, saying something that is inaccurate is not the same as "lying." Similarly, unless you have the intent to commit an unlawful act, firing on what you believe to be an unlawful combatant involved in evacuating insurgents from a battlefield is not a war crime.

    Unfortunate result =/= war crime.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 10-23-10 at 05:39 AM.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  9. #89
    Sage
    jamesrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A place where common sense exists
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    31,067

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    I have no clue if what this clearly sick individual is about to leak is true or not, but it is obvious it puts our troops and those of our allies in danger and is not helpful in any way.

    I would like to hear that this person has been placed in prison or better yet just disappeared and if asked the Pentagon had no comment.

    I believe there is a provision in Patriot Act II that allows for for people who are a danger to to held without charge virtually for ever and no one even gets to know where they are.

    I normally oppose this whole idea but in this case I can make an exception.

    When it is discovered who gave him the papers that person should face the death penalty.

    Yes it's harsh and I don't give a damn, who thinks so.
    It takes two to tango and the wikileaks founder is just as guilty as the traitors who leak information.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  10. #90
    Bohemian Revolutionary
    Demon of Light's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Seen
    03-07-17 @ 12:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    5,095

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And we also transferred sovereignty back to Iraq. Like it or not, we're neither responsible for nor able to do anything about the things that the Iraqi government chose to do after that.
    We sure as hell can do something about it. Many of the detainees were caught by our forces and handed over to the Iraqis despite knowing these people would likely be tortured. The U.S. actively facilitated such incidents by failing to investigate them and trying to keep the abuses concealed. We gave that government protection in countless ways. Never mind that for most of that time we had military control of Iraq. Abuses by the Iraqi government now are not really our responsibility since we are no longer actively involved in the conflict, but these are incidents ranging from 2004 to 2009.

    I'm not sure what you're arguing here. He was arrested because he stole classified information and leaked it to wikileaks. The fact that the arrest was not made until after the first video was published does not make a bit of difference.
    The point is that he was arrested for a video that ultimately only served to expose a war crime.

    What's your point? Unless you just want to quibble about where to draw the line, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
    What I am getting at is that no one is suggesting that nothing be classified.

    Not really. Rape is a serious felony committed by an individual person that serves no purpose for the state. Saying something confidential in a diplomatic cable is entirely legal, is performed by the state, and serves an important purpose in advancing the interests of the state. There is no way to analogize the two.
    Like I said, it depends on the content, however, attempting to cover up information that will damage one's credibility or status is the same no matter what information is being covered up.

    Another example of confusing intent and result. Unless you have the intent to lie, saying something that is inaccurate is not the same as "lying." Similarly, unless you have the intent to commit an unlawful act, firing on what you believe to be an unlawful combatant involved in evacuating insurgents from a battlefield is not a war crime.
    Firing on an unarmed person evacuating another unarmed person who is wounded is a big no-no and yes, Virginia, it is a war crime.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

Page 9 of 16 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •