Page 8 of 16 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 152

Thread: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

  1. #71
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:34 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,541

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    The U.S. undermined itself when it a) withheld information that it knew could turn public opinion against the war; and b) had lax enough security that thousands of documents were able to be leaked in the first place.
    That's just stupid. You expect nations at war to maintain full divulgence of everything that happens? You think the mere fact of documents being leaked constitutes a prima facie culpable negligence?

    I guess if your brother were to rummage through your home and publish your credit report, well, shame on you for having such lax security. So sad.

    Freedom of the press sucks, doesn't it?
    And this is doubly stupid, because no one impugned freedom of the press. Illegally leaking secret documents has nothing to do with it. At all.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  2. #72
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:34 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,541

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'm not delusional. There is always more to the story, but at least now the story can be told instead of covering up some pretty horrible details of war that we are paying for out of our pockets.
    What was "covered up"? That's a loaded term. That implies nefarious intent. There's no evidence of that, at all.

    I think you're rather giddy about all of this.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  3. #73
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    The U.S. undermined itself when it a) withheld information that it knew could turn public opinion against the war;
    You're arguing that an entity "undermines itself" when it does not choose to publicize every tidbit of negative information that may cause people to be angry. I think you have that completely backwards.

    and b) had lax enough security that thousands of documents were able to be leaked in the first place.
    Sure.

    Freedom of the press sucks, doesn't it?
    You keep on making snarky comments like this, but I really don't see how any of them really bear on the issue. This has absolutely nothing to do with "freedom of the press," as we're not talking about whether newspapers have the right to print information that they receive. This is about an extranational group that has dedicated itself to obtaining and publishing classified information about the US with the goal of undermining the US. As a Canadian, you might find that fantastic. As an American, I find that extremely objectionable.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  4. #74
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Last Seen
    12-26-10 @ 06:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,083

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That's just stupid. You expect nations at war to maintain full divulgence of everything that happens? You think the mere fact of documents being leaked constitutes a prima facie culpable negligence?
    How about something far more basic than that? Allow the international press free access to the war zone. That's what war correspondents do. They take the risks and go into dangerous areas to let the world know what is happening. But oops, we already let them do that in Vietnam, and look what happened: people stopped supporting the war.

    I don't expect the government to divulge its classified operations. I expect it to honour BASIC public access to the region so that it can do its own fact collecting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I guess if your brother were to rummage through your home and publish your credit report, well, shame on you for having such lax security. So sad.
    Are you still trying this line of argument? Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    And this is doubly stupid, because no one impugned freedom of the press. Illegally leaking secret documents has nothing to do with it. At all.
    The press has restricted access to both Afghanistan and Iraq, by order of the U.S. It's for their "safety".

  5. #75
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Last Seen
    12-26-10 @ 06:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,083

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You keep on making snarky comments like this, but I really don't see how any of them really bear on the issue. This has absolutely nothing to do with "freedom of the press," as we're not talking about whether newspapers have the right to print information that they receive. This is about an extranational group that has dedicated itself to obtaining and publishing classified information about the US with the goal of undermining the US. As a Canadian, you might find that fantastic. As an American, I find that extremely objectionable.
    I'm not really interested in the intentions of the group. They don't seem to be altering the information, but simply making it available. If the information itself is damning then it's not because of any organization's agenda; it's because the info. itself is true. You can hide behind the guise of heinous actions all you want, just like your leaders are, but it doesn't change the fact that the raw details are about to be known.

    And as a person (not a Canadian), I don't take pleasure in knowing the brutalities of war. It actually makes me angry, especially when the basic facts are watered down and the press is denied autonomous access to war zones so that the government can continue to manufacture consent on the home front. Assonge may be a dirt bag but his information is gold.

  6. #76
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:58 AM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,299
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    The U.S. undermined itself when it a) withheld information that it knew could turn public opinion against the war; and b) had lax enough security that thousands of documents were able to be leaked in the first place.

    Freedom of the press sucks, doesn't it?
    So if you do not lock up your valuables securely, it's your fault when they are stolen?

    There are procedures to determine when classified material is no longer sensitive and should be available to the public. If you have problems with the procedure, the proper thing to do is change it, not just do whatever you want with classified documents.

    To me, it does not matter what the documents say at this point(since I have not read them I cannot judge the content), but the way they where released is simply wrong, and I hope we prosecute successfully any one we can in connection with this. These types of things cannot be allowed to happen.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  7. #77
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:34 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,541

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    How about something far more basic than that? Allow the international press free access to the war zone. That's what war correspondents do. They take the risks and go into dangerous areas to let the world know what is happening. But oops, we already let them do that in Vietnam, and look what happened: people stopped supporting the war.

    I don't expect the government to divulge its classified operations. I expect it to honour BASIC public access to the region so that it can do its own fact collecting.
    Entirely different issue, which in no way justifies any of this.

    And yes you DO expect the government to divulge its classified operations. You said so yourself when you said the US "undermines" itself by NOT doing so.

    Are you still trying this line of argument? Please.
    It's apt, and you haven't shown how it isn't.


    The press has restricted access to both Afghanistan and Iraq, by order of the U.S. It's for their "safety".
    Go off a different subject again if you like, but I have to wonder why you choose to instead of addressing the actual points.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 10-23-10 at 04:07 AM.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  8. #78
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:34 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,541

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    instead of covering up some pretty horrible details of war that we are paying for out of our pockets.
    What "we" are you referring to -- in italics, no less?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  9. #79
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'm not really interested in the intentions of the group.
    You're not bothered by the intentions because those intentions are aligned with your own goals. If that weren't the case, I would wager you'd pay more attention to what they were doing and why.

    They don't seem to be altering the information, but simply making it available. If the information itself is damning then it's not because of any organization's agenda; it's because the info. itself is true.
    So you're saying that as long as someone releases accurate information, it's not possible to do it in a way that is designed to push one point of view or another? You know that's not true.

    Moreover, you keep missing the point - it's not that they're publishing lies, its that they're actively seeking to encourage people to leak classified information for the purpose of undermining our country. That's a big ****ing deal, whether you want to admit it or not.

    You can hide behind the guise of heinous actions all you want, just like your leaders are, but it doesn't change the fact that the raw details are about to be known.
    And again with the overly flowery statements that don't actually mean anything.

    And as a person (not a Canadian), I don't take pleasure in knowing the brutalities of war. It actually makes me angry, especially when the basic facts are watered down and the press is denied autonomous access to war zones so that the government can continue to manufacture consent on the home front.
    And what the **** does that have to do with the propriety of leaking classified information?

    Assonge may be a dirt bag but his information is gold.
    You think it's gold because it helps your goals. As someone who is concerned about the safety, security and status of my country, I don't.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  10. #80
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Orion - when you come home, do you list for your family every conceivably bad thing that you did that day? When you meet someone new, do you immediately hand them a list of all your flaws and misdeeds?

    Do you think that you're "undermining yourself" by not disclosing those things to the public?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Page 8 of 16 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •