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Thread: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

  1. #131
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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    wait no more
    read this and note the allies complicity in turning over prisoners to an iraqi unit known to inflict torture
    Iraq war logs: US turned over captives to Iraqi torture squads | World news | The Guardian
    So here's what that article indicates:

    In 2004 and 2005, there were some number of detainees who were handed over to a particular Iraqi group known as "Wolf Battalion." (Note: The group is actually called "Wolf Brigade." It had a primetime TV show

    At the end of 2005, a US soldier told a detainee that if he didn't talk, "He would be subject to all the pain and agony that the Wolf battalion is known to exact upon its detainees."

    A group of Sunnis has, without evidence, accused the Wolf Brigade of torture and other killings.

    Human rights groups have claimed that Wolf Brigade has violated the Geneva Conventions by embarrassing their detainees via their TV show.

    Takeaway: It sounds like that one interrogator broke the rules by threatening the detainee inappropriately. He should probably be punished. I don't see evidence that any other laws were broken.

    and it now appears to be a topic of interest to the UN
    UN calls for probe into US inaction on torture | Raw Story

    An Austrian human rights lawyer thinks that the UN should look into the US's actions in Iraq? Wow, this comes as a total surprise and has completely changed my perspective on things.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So here's what that article indicates:

    In 2004 and 2005, there were some number of detainees who were handed over to a particular Iraqi group known as "Wolf Battalion." (Note: The group is actually called "Wolf Brigade." It had a primetime TV show

    At the end of 2005, a US soldier told a detainee that if he didn't talk, "He would be subject to all the pain and agony that the Wolf battalion is known to exact upon its detainees."

    A group of Sunnis has, without evidence, accused the Wolf Brigade of torture and other killings.

    Human rights groups have claimed that Wolf Brigade has violated the Geneva Conventions by embarrassing their detainees via their TV show.

    Takeaway: It sounds like that one interrogator broke the rules by threatening the detainee inappropriately. He should probably be punished. I don't see evidence that any other laws were broken.




    An Austrian human rights lawyer thinks that the UN should look into the US's actions in Iraq?
    Wow, this comes as a total surprise and has completely changed my perspective on things.
    as if i would expect you to consider the facts of the matter before coming to a wrong conclusion
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    As I understand the info from the quite well-known Apache vid, I would not hold the pilots responsible for anything untoward.

    Regarding the more recent Wikileaks bit, I know nothing that is in any of the files, and have yet to form an opinion on what should/should not happen to the leakers.
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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    as if i would expect you to consider the facts of the matter before coming to a wrong conclusion
    Care to respond to anything I posted, or is this going to be another one of the threads where you pop in, drop a link that isn't responsive, and then scurry back out with childish swipes at anyone who points out that you don't really understand what you're talking about?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Care to respond to anything I posted, or is this going to be another one of the threads where you pop in, drop a link that isn't responsive, and then scurry back out with childish swipes at anyone who points out that you don't really understand what you're talking about?
    i made my point
    one you have been unable to rebut
    and now you are butt hurt because you were shown to be wrong again
    man up and quit whining
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    What is it with debates lately, that seem to descend into a debate about who made a point first and who needs to answer said point first?
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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    What is it with debates lately, that seem to descend into a debate about who made a point first and who needs to answer said point first?
    Sorry to have to say this again but many and I am not going to say whom it is that is guilty of this, but when people are unable to reinforce there arguments with the truth and facts they too often raise their voice, or as is the case more often than not they pullout the race card, put up a straw man, call people names, claim the opposition are all haters, when the truth is they have no business even trying to carry on an intelligent conversation, because it's like the old saying goes. When you get into a battle of wits with some you arguing with and unarmed opponent.

    It has become the rule of the day in defending the indefensible acts of Obama President Bush is put up as the straw man. It doesn't seem to matter what the topic it was President Bushes fault.

    Obama never did a thing wrong and all those mistakes we keep pointing out well, Obama and his minions claim the Devil President Bush made Obama do it.

    "Secrecy is essential to empire," said Daniel Ellsberg, after accusing Obama of continuing a trend set by his predecessor, George W. Bush, of trying to greatly stem the flow of U.S. war planning and fighting information to the public through the reinterpretation of laws already in existence.

    Wow did he say that?

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I also asked you "for a link to the story talking about how we arrested the people we're talking about and turned them over to the Iraqis so that they could be tortured," to which you replied "Obviously, you aren't looking hard enough or maybe you just don't want to look hard enough."
    It is not my fault you can't keep track of what you were asking me. I only ever sought to prove what I said and took your demands for proof as being directed towards what I said.

    Regardless, you haven't provided any evidence for either of those claims.
    Yes, I proved the claim I made.

    In order to show a violation of that treaty (or of any law), you have to show that the US was aware that it was more likely than not that any individual prisoner that they transferred to Iraqi custody would be tortured. I'm still waiting for any evidence to support that.
    I already showed it thank you very much.

    All of which are tactics that we presumably use to try to get the Iraqi government to do other things as well. Part of diplomacy is understanding that you have a limited amount of juice and deciding where that juice is best allocated. The US government, under both Bush and Obama, looked at the situation and decided that the ROI from pushing for the things you suggest was not worth it when compared to the other things they could push for. You disagree. Given the vast disparity of information and expertise, I'll trust their judgment over yours.
    This is not something that requires information or expertise. Considering protection of human rights more important than other things merely reflects on one's values. It does not surprise me that our government does not put as much value on the rights of foreigners, that has generally always been the case save for where it lines up with geopolitical interests.

    Yea, when discussing how to define "whistleblower," the definition that "pretty much everyone" (read: you) uses is far more relevant than the definition that the US and most every other country uses.
    Pretty much everyone meaning the media and past whistleblowers like Daniel Ellsberg.

    Who said we treat whistleblowers like traitors? Whistleblowers are fine. This guy wasn't a whistleblower.
    He was and is a whistleblower. You are demanding he be treated like a traitor.

    So link me to one. You have a bad habit of making claims that you don't back up.
    The Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 in use in the UK provides protection for all means of disclosure concerning illegal activities. Initially there had been an exemption for intelligence and military, but that apparently has been repealed.

    There's really no point in me wasting my time on this issue any more, as you very clearly are only seeing what you want to see.
    It is not a matter of seeing what I want to see. The only time I spotted weapons was with two guys standing on a street corner who did not go to where the journalists that ultimately got fired on were. The Jawa report has an obvious slant and often makes outlandish claims. Many of the things they claim are simply wrong.

    ....That's in the exact same section that we were just talking about. The section that applies to situations that are no longer live battlefields.
    It was only a live battlefield because the helicopter opened fire. When it was not firing on them it was not a "live battlefield" so that argument is invalid.

    Moreover, it still only applies "to the wounded and sick belonging to the following categories" that I listed above.

    Nothing in the Geneva Conventions covers this situation.
    Both protocols that the U.S. has ratified provide protection for the wounded and sick be they civilians or members of armed forces. It explicitly provides protections to citizens who spontaneously collect the wounded. The key here being "spontaneous" as that implies they simply come upon a wounded person and evacuate them suggesting a person may not be aware of an individual's status. Regardless of how you look at it, firing on a vehicle simply because an unarmed civilian is evacuating a wounded person who is also unarmed constitutes a war crime under the Conventions that the U.S. itself has ratified. That the U.S. has itself signed a Protocol explicitly covering such a case as this should be taken into consideration as well.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Almost 300,000 deaths caused indirectly/directly by our invasion into Iraq?

    I think I'm going to be sick.



    Maybe the iraqis shouldve stopped killin each other as this is where the majority of the deaths would be.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    It was only a live battlefield because the helicopter opened fire. When it was not firing on them it was not a "live battlefield" so that argument is invalid.
    Sorry to butt in on this one, but it is my understanding that the helicopter only opened fire because they thought armed enemies were near the US units they were protecting.

    The "live battlefield" argument is seemingly being applied to a later firing on an effort by unknown persons to retrieve persons from the battlefield - which was live...Not to the initial deaths caused by the helicopter firing on what it thought were armed enemies.

    Much later in the vid, I think the same heli (with another assisting) attacks an under-construction building with armed persons taking cover in it.
    Last edited by The Mark; 10-24-10 at 07:50 PM.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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