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Thread: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

  1. #91
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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    We sure as hell can do something about it. Many of the detainees were caught by our forces and handed over to the Iraqis despite knowing these people would likely be tortured.
    Link to these people in question being caught by us and turned over with the knowledge that they would be tortured? It sounds like you're just taking allegations about our actions in regards to other countries and assuming that's what happened here.

    The U.S. actively facilitated such incidents by failing to investigate them and trying to keep the abuses concealed.
    If these situations were outside of our authority, it's absurd to argue that we facilitated them by failing to investigate. Iraq is a sovereign nation and has control over its own affairs. If an Iraqi police officer beats some guy in prison, there's not a ****ing thing that the US can do about it.

    We gave that government protection in countless ways. Never mind that for most of that time we had military control of Iraq. Abuses by the Iraqi government now are not really our responsibility since we are no longer actively involved in the conflict, but these are incidents ranging from 2004 to 2009.
    And when did these particular incidents occur?

    The point is that he was arrested for a video that ultimately only served to expose a war crime.
    No, he was arrested for breaking the law.

    What I am getting at is that no one is suggesting that nothing be classified.
    You said that "people in authority" should not have the authority to determine what to classify. You said that individuals who want to publicize things are important because they can just override those decisions and publicize whatever they want. If that's not arguing against any system of classification, I don't know what is.

    Like I said, it depends on the content, however, attempting to cover up information that will damage one's credibility or status is the same no matter what information is being covered up.
    No, it's not.

    Firing on an unarmed person evacuating another unarmed person who is wounded is a big no-no
    Did you watch the same video that I did? This wasn't a bunch of unarmed civilians walking around and picking flowers, this was a group of insurgents carrying AK47s and RPGs.

    and yes, Virginia, it is a war crime.
    No, it's not.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  2. #92
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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    The people at Wikileaks have absolutely no respect for the secrets they know nor for the consequences for their actions. I do not, under any circumstances, identify with the whistleblower model being bestowed upon them by defenders of Wikileaks.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    I would like to hear that this person has been placed in prison or better yet just disappeared and if asked the Pentagon had no comment.

    I believe there is a provision in Patriot Act II that allows for for people who are a danger to to held without charge virtually for ever and no one even gets to know where they are.
    Right, because of course the right response to a threat to American security is to abandon American principals.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    This amounts to espionage and spying. There's no law that protects spies from summary executions.
    Yeah, there is.

    It's called the Fifth Amendment.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    How come it's so ridiculously easy to get your hands on over 400,000 secret to top secret documents and files of the US army anyway?
    They should find where the hole is and make sure it doesn't happen anymore, because one leaking soldier (or even 10) cannot possibly have an access to so many documents.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 10-23-10 at 07:08 PM.
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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    They're being submitted to Wikileaks by people who have lawful access to them.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    They're being submitted to Wikileaks by people who have lawful access to them.
    Alright, that makes it clear then.
    That's a lot of people.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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  8. #98
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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Link to these people in question being caught by us and turned over with the knowledge that they would be tortured? It sounds like you're just taking allegations about our actions in regards to other countries and assuming that's what happened here.
    This is what has been reported by various news agencies reviewing the Wikileaks documents.

    If these situations were outside of our authority, it's absurd to argue that we facilitated them by failing to investigate. Iraq is a sovereign nation and has control over its own affairs. If an Iraqi police officer beats some guy in prison, there's not a ****ing thing that the US can do about it.
    If you see someone getting beat up in alley you are not technically required to help, but that doesn't mean there is nothing you can do to help. Also, covering up the misdeeds of other is definitely facilitating them.

    And when did these particular incidents occur?
    I just said. This is all stuff coming from the Wikileaks data.

    No, he was arrested for breaking the law.
    So was Rosa Parks, that does not mean the arrest has no political motivation.

    You said that "people in authority" should not have the authority to determine what to classify. You said that individuals who want to publicize things are important because they can just override those decisions and publicize whatever they want. If that's not arguing against any system of classification, I don't know what is.
    I am arguing against the notion that "people in authority" should have sole discretion over what people should or should not know. I also argued against the notion that "random people" deciding that something should be released is an entirely bad thing. There is a reason there are protections for whistleblowers in many legal systems. Sometimes random people deciding something shouldn't be kept secret are the only way you find out about the abuses of people in authority.

    Did you watch the same video that I did? This wasn't a bunch of unarmed civilians walking around and picking flowers, this was a group of insurgents carrying AK47s and RPGs.
    Not the wounded journalist, who never carried a weapon, nor the man who came upon the scene as he was taking his children to school and tried to save the life of said journalist. They were fired on despite having no weapon and despite the fact it was only a man trying to evacuate a wounded person. It does not matter whether it involves a civilian or a medical professional, firing on people for only tending to the wounded is a war crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    How come it's so ridiculously easy to get your hands on over 400,000 secret to top secret documents and files of the US army anyway?
    I don't think these were secret of top secret. Maybe some were secret, but as I understand they were fairly low on the level of classification.
    Last edited by Demon of Light; 10-23-10 at 07:23 PM.
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  9. #99
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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    So your absolute that American lives will be lost with the release of these documents is based on the possibility of content that may or may not be contained in the documents?
    Are you absolutely sure that American lives won't be lost, because of the release of these documents? Your right to know doesn't outweigh the safety of American personel.

    No I don't think this guy is qualified to do so. I would rather these document be released with all personal and tactical information stripped out. If I was him I would do just that before releasing the documents. The only information that should be released is the overview analysis of the impacy of operations. That includes death tolls, reason for death, resuces, succesful transitions of securiy forces, etc.
    That's brings us back to where we started from: he isn't qualified to segregate that information.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Wikileaks: Secret Iraq War Death Toll Set at 285,000

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Almost 300,000 deaths caused indirectly/directly by our invasion into Iraq?

    I think I'm going to be sick.
    Most of which were caused by your own people. I would be sick, too. Are you just as sick at the 300,000 people that Saddam murdered and torchered during his reign?

    Oh, let me guess; that's different?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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