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Thread: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

  1. #261
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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I bet Hegel wouldn't have a problem with it, being he talked a lot about logic and ripping open the pages of history, time is progress and understanding.
    Hegel wouldn't have a problem with the (absurd) statement that science is a form of logic because "he talked a lot about logic and ripping open the pages of history".... gotcha.

    No, really - I'm convinced. I mean, how are we supposed to rip open those pages unless we classify science as a form of logic?

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Just in case Taylor comes back

    ... or anybody is interested.. and because I have a self interest in showing how wrong Taylor is still

    This is Arthur A. Meyerhoff.. respected scientist and best know opponent of the theory of Plate Tectonics.. He has accused educational facilities of so called, spoon feeding this theory to pupils with little to no discussion in the classroom.
    I have no idea how this shows "how wrong I am still" but am quite amused that SheWolf -- with her steadfast faith in science as infallible and objectively pure -- is now championing Meyeroff as a "respected scientist" who...

    ....get this...

    ...is angered by the "flaws and contradictions of plate tectonics."

  3. #263
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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Hegel wouldn't have a problem with the (absurd) statement that science is a form of logic because "he talked a lot about logic and ripping open the pages of history".... gotcha.

    No, really - I'm convinced. I mean, how are we supposed to rip open those pages unless we classify science as a form of logic?


    You're asking me to debate myself for you. No sources, no challenge. Brilliant..

    Should I throw you a bone?

    No.. Because I know you'll just start looking for the next thing to argue with me about instead of standing your ground. First it was evolution, then science in general, then the solar system, then Plate Tectonics, and now this.

    Instead of trying make me look incompetent.. prove how much you know for once. Go ahead naming the names of those philosophers rolling over in their graves.. post some statements.. site publications on logic.

    .. site ANYTHING..

    If you're so confidence it's was absurd, you'd have no problem finding an authoritative voice in agreement with you.

  4. #264
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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I have no idea how this shows "how wrong I am still" but am quite amused that SheWolf -- with her steadfast faith in science as infallible and objectively pure -- is now championing Meyeroff as a "respected scientist" who...

    ....get this...

    ...is angered by the "flaws and contradictions of plate tectonics."
    You obviously have some big agenda with using the words subjective and fallible to describe science.. I am starting to believe that you think anything that is subjective is inherently fallible-- all feelings, all emotions, all forms of faith and belief, all perceptions about anything and everything.

    I have always said there is room discerning opinions and views in science. That doesn't mean science is flawed and fallible. You went from criticizing the scientific method in this thread, to lecturing somebody else on it. You even said the solar system was subjective.. talk about absurd.

    I have also always said that science isn't promising all arrows will point to the objective truth.. so you're not really doing anything clever here. I know what science is. I know how it's used and applied to the world. I don't find it offensive, useless, or fallible.

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    Re: Oh no you just didn'!

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    You may arrive at a theory that way, but that's not what a "theory means." The general theory of relativity did not come about as a "hypothesis that has been repetitively tested."
    Um...actually yes, the theory of relativity was a hypothesis that has been repetitively tested. Hundreds of times in fact in various different experiments.

    And I'm sorry, but laws in the scientific sense are simply generalizations of theories. Nobody says "law of gravity" because there is no need to generalize the concept of gravity. Thermodynamics you have to generalize.

    You can argue the semantics all you want, I'm just the guy who has to read several scientific journals every week.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 10-22-10 at 05:01 AM.

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    Re: Oh no you just didn'!

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Plate tectonics is a theory.

    In fact, gravity is a theory.

    Theory just means that it is a hypothesis that has been repetitively tested and has yet to be falsified.
    Huh. So we're all sticking to the surface of this planet based on a theory. So tell me... the world is round right? Or is that a theory too and there's some cliff a little beyond the sunset and we're all going to fall off the edge of the earth and be eaten by monsters?
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #267
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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Fox_86 View Post
    OMG!?!

    This post is why I fear American's role as the world's superpower. Yikes!
    And yet, you still don't know. How'd it begin? What created that first living cell. Where did that first drop of water come from? What created that first two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.

    The arrogance to pretend to know something that you - or anyone - could not possibly know is astounding. You just throw insults and run. Must come from getting stuffed in too many trash cans once upon a time.

    Einstein believed in a higher being. Take it up with him.

  8. #268
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    Re: Oh no you just didn'!

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Um...actually yes, the theory of relativity was a hypothesis that has been repetitively tested. Hundreds of times in fact in various different experiments.
    Sure it's been tested. But it didn't start out as a hypothesis that was repeatedly tested and eventually became a theory. Completely false. The theory provided a new model to account for existing, known phenomena that had startling implications. It wasn't that scientists tested the "relativity hypothesis" - the relativity theory suggested multiple, new hypotheses that were tested and confirmed.

    "Repetitive testing" of a hypothesis, by itself, is not very convincing evidence that you've figured out how things work - common misconception.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    And I'm sorry, but laws in the scientific sense are simply generalizations of theories. Nobody says "law of gravity" because there is no need to generalize the concept of gravity.
    More rubbish. Laws generalize observations, not theories. Laws describe, theories explain.

    How you tried to define a theory: "a hypothesis that has been repeatedly tested" is actually closer to a description of a law.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    You can argue the semantics all you want, I'm just the guy who has to read several scientific journals every week.
    "Scientific journals" (the vast majority of them) don't discuss these topics, and many of the people who publish in scientific journals don't understand them either.

    What you claim to read is irrelevant. If you want to debate, then debate. Don't expect me to be swayed or impressed by an appeal to authority - an unsubstantiated one at that. You don't see me talking about my education on this forum. Besides, it only makes you look more foolish when you're shown to be wrong.
    Last edited by Taylor; 10-22-10 at 12:24 PM.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    You obviously have some big agenda with using the words subjective and fallible to describe science.. I am starting to believe that you think anything that is subjective is inherently fallible-- all feelings, all emotions, all forms of faith and belief, all perceptions about anything and everything.
    No, no big agenda. To anybody that practices science or is trained in science, it's blatantly obvious that science in neither inherently objective or infallible. Knowing this makes you a better scientist. I merely stated it was a common misconception among high-school aged kids to believe otherwise. Why you're trying to prove that misconception is beyond me, but I'm happy to continue replying to your posts.

    You claim "I have always said there is room discerning opinions and views in science" - so maybe you're having difficulty with what it means to be infallible or objective, or maybe what "science" is.

    You went from criticizing the scientific method in this thread, to lecturing somebody else on it. You even said the solar system was subjective.. talk about absurd.
    The point about the "solar system" is true, but can be a difficult to grasp. It will probably never come up in your studies unless you end up taking graduate courses in something like philosophy or cognitive science. The idea of a "solar system" is a concept - a simplification of the real world. That's what science does - it doesn't uncover "the truth" so much as simplify the world in terms we can understand. It tends to be only as accurate as it needs to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I have also always said that science isn't promising all arrows will point to the objective truth.. so you're not really doing anything clever here. I know what science is. I know how it's used and applied to the world. I don't find it offensive, useless, or fallible.
    You say science won't always point to objective truth, but is nonetheless infallible. That makes no sense.

  10. #270
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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Science infallible?
    From the ashes.

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