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Thread: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    These are just the ones found in the fossil record so far. Further, since evolution is a continuous process, every species is a transitional species.
    Nine degrees of separation between a common monkey and man? really? I'm farther away from Kevin bacon than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Evolution deals with a process in nature involving living organisms. It requires life to exist to happen. Bio-genesis is a separate theory unrelated to evolution.
    The point being that on any level it take a leap of faith (either relying on science or God) for life to begin and the whole evolutionary process to start. If a person is able to make that leap why not the leap that man spontaneuosly appeared?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Say huh what?
    The easiest explanation is we don't see Cromagnon or neanderthals running around in present day but we do see apes.
    From the ashes.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Nine degrees of separation between a common monkey and man? really? I'm farther away from Kevin bacon than that.
    That has nothing to do with what I said. You asked about transitional species, I showed transitional species in the fossil record. Comparing differences between species, with differences between individuals in a species is not a valid comparison.

    The point being that on any level it take a leap of faith (either relying on science or God) for life to begin and the whole evolutionary process to start. If a person is able to make that leap why not the leap that man spontaneuosly appeared?
    The point is, that this "leap of faith" is not part of evolution. There is another, entirely different theory(theories actually) for this, and they are not part of evolution.

    The easiest explanation is we don't see Cromagnon or neanderthals running around in present day but we do see apes.
    You still are making no sense. Some species go extinct, others do not.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajay View Post
    "Every single person alive, every animal that has ever lived is a transitional fossil." - Brian Sapient
    Really? Really? So... what did the Dodo transition into other than oblivion? Oh wait! Of course... what was the Dodo has now become... Brian Sapient - Self Proclaimed "Curer of Theism"

    I mean, jeez - the poor idiot doesn't even know what a fossil is!

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That has nothing to do with what I said. You asked about transitional species, I showed transitional species in the fossil record. Comparing differences between species, with differences between individuals in a species is not a valid comparison.
    No I didn't. I challenged your statement that TONS of transitional species existed. you were able to show NINE. NINE! So NINE is a ton of....? Over millions of years we have NINE steps that jump us from monkey to man. I don't buy it, that's what I am saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The point is, that this "leap of faith" is not part of evolution. There is another, entirely different theory(theories actually) for this, and they are not part of evolution.
    If we were going to make the statement that we as a HUMAN species have evolved into what we are now from a prehistoric form of HUMAN not ape or something else, I would agee.
    HOWEVER if the statement if going to be made that all life originated from some single cell organism then the origin of that single cell has to be explained or the whole theory is invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You still are making no sense. Some species go extinct, others do not.
    What doesn't make sense is every other "step" in the evolutionary process has disappear except our current human form and monkeys and Apes. A huge gap exist in there. If Apes reproduce and evolve and still exist AND they are a lower earlier form of a human Why did Neaderthal die out? Why didn't he reproduce and make neanderthals just like the apes?
    A better explanation is that we are seperate species and evolved seperately.
    From the ashes.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    No I didn't. I challenged your statement that TONS of transitional species existed. you were able to show NINE. NINE! So NINE is a ton of....? Over millions of years we have NINE steps that jump us from monkey to man. I don't buy it, that's what I am saying.
    Actually, I showed you dozens of transitional species.


    If we were going to make the statement that we as a HUMAN species have evolved into what we are now from a prehistoric form of HUMAN not ape or something else, I would agee.
    HOWEVER if the statement if going to be made that all life originated from some single cell organism then the origin of that single cell has to be explained or the whole theory is invalid.
    You keep changing what you are asking about, or are confused. Evolution starts once there is life, and it, over millions of years, has led to where we are now.

    What doesn't make sense is every other "step" in the evolutionary process has disappear except our current human form and monkeys and Apes. A huge gap exist in there. If Apes reproduce and evolve and still exist AND they are a lower earlier form of a human Why did Neaderthal die out? Why didn't he reproduce and make neanderthals just like the apes?
    A better explanation is that we are seperate species and evolved seperately.
    Every single species on earth now is part of evolution. They have not died out.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Wrong. Our understanding of the world is constantly changing. When contridicted by new information, scientific facts and laws are disproven and (hopefully) replaced by a new fact or law.


    I said our understanding of the world is constantly changing... The world went from flat to round, spinning on an axis and revolving around the sun. You are using "fact" in general terms, not scientific terms.

    For example Galilei suggested the earth was moving, not the sun and the stars... it was controversial. Even though it was true, it wasn't proven indefinitely true until we sent satellites up in space and saw he was right. For that reason, in Galilei's lifetime his suggestion was a theory and not a fact. Other scientists disagreed with him.. There were arguments against his claim coming from every direction.

    Science encourages individual thinking and gives individual thinking and theory creditability via the scientific method and a common understanding and agreement of scientific terms. Science doesn't hamper individual thinking, it gives it a voice and respect.

    No, the comparison is poor one. "Tests and theories" are a part of science -your claim is akin to me saying "cars don't break down, engines and transmissions do"
    That is just stupid. If you want to say science is fallible then go head and argue why.. don't declare it so. Back it up with sources.

    WHAT IS SCIENCE?
    Science is the concerted human effort to understand, or to understand better, the history of the natural world and how the natural world works, with observable physical evidence as the basis of that understanding1. It is done through observation of natural phenomena, and/or through experimentation that tries to simulate natural processes under controlled conditions.
    What is Science?

    WHAT IS LOGIC

    Briefly speaking, we might define logic as the study of the principles of correct reasoning.

    One thing you should note about this definition is that logic is concerned with the principles of correct reasoning. Studying the correct principles of reasoning is not the same as studying the psychology of reasoning. Logic is the former discipline, and it tells us how we ought to reason if we want to reason correctly.

    There are many principles of logic, but the main (not the only) thing that we study in logic are principles governing the validity of arguments.

    A second feature of the principles of logic is that they are non-contingent, in the sense that they do not depend on any particular accidental features of the world. Physics and the other empirical sciences investigate the way the world actually is. Physicists might tell us that no signal can travel faster than the speed of light, but if the laws of physics have been different, then perhaps this would not have been true.
    [L01] What is logic?

    Science is a form of logic... Science follows the principles of logic, and the scientific method sets up the rules for correct reasoning in the science community. Logic is the foundation of science.

    Science doesn't claim to be true or to find the truth as a whole, hence somethings are laws and theory. That is exactly why there is a uniform agreement in science as what constitutes as theory, law, hypothesis, and fact. There are subjective judgement from each scientist, but not a fallible subjective voice coming from the community. Theory is theory, law is law, fact is fact.. Disagree with what the scientific method is and says, then apply you're reasoning to the method and challenge the community again and again.
    What is Science?




    Science that is flawlessly conducted is still fallible, the same is not true of logic. Science depends on observation. Logic is all in the head.
    That is just silly.. Nobody will ever say science is flawlessly conducted, that is where much of the disagreement in science comes from.. the testing. No offense but how long has it been since you read a science book? After every section on a purposed theory, texts usually state the controversy in testing and the areas of disagreement very well.

    Even in tests and studies were well thought out, somebody else in the community will always criticize the test.. especially if people know they are being tested. The Milligram experiments tried to remove the influence of knowledge from some of their subjects, but those tests and experiments are still very controversial and disputed.

    Spoken like someone who has never actually conducted science. Interpretations are constantly tainted by theoretical dispositions, personal characterisitics, etc. The same data can and will lead "objective" scientists to different conclusions.
    LOL.. are you claiming that you have ever conducted a scientific experiential on anything that wasn't guided or prepared by an instructor. DOUBT IT! So don't even try to play like you have leg up on me here.

    I have never conducted a respected scientific experiential on my own.. but I have studied scientific experiments and sciences, and it's a hobby for me.

    I'm not sure you understand the meaning of "objectivity." A failure to be objective does not mean that you're lying.

    There are lots of examples where the consensus view in science was wrong, where a particular theoretical disposition blinded the masses to contradictory evidence. Wegener correctly theorized in 1912 that the continents drifted to their present positions from a single landmass. His ideas were thoroughly rejected by the scientific community, which clinged for another 50 years to a very flawed theory that land had once connected the continents and had simply sunk under the ocean.


    Just because there is a consensus view in science doesn't mean the community was saying that was a fact... Sometimes theories are more popular than others. Plate Tectonics is a popular theory, it doesn't mean it's true or scientists are pushing it as truth. Just because Wegener's theory was rejected, it doesn't mean the scientific community was wrong.. It just means his theory wasn't sound proof, and his theory wasn't accepted util Plate Tectonic Theory became an accepted theory that further explained Wegener's continental drift.

    The scientific community is more inclined to challenge new ideas than accepted them.. In science everything begins as an idea or a hypothesis. The more scrutiny it goes under, the stronger it gets or the more it falls apart. If can't be proven or disproven it gets stuck in scientific limbo as a theory for a while or until it's improved or disproved..

    Yes, science won't accept facts like the Earth is revolving on an axis immediately.. but it will NEVER accept something wrong like the earth is flat and guarded by dragons either.. which is why you'll never find an example of the community shoving a lie down your throat.
    Last edited by SheWolf; 10-21-10 at 07:28 PM.

  7. #237
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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Setting aside practicalities...
    The purpose of those tax dollars is to provide a basic education. If a religious school is able to provide just as good a basic education as a secular school, why not pay for it with tax dollars? The government is being completely neutral with respect to religion.
    But then the school would be subject to public policy since it's part of the public sector.. no? Don't you think it's a good idea for the government to not meddle in religious institutions, the same way it doesn't meddle in the private sector?

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    The Constitution was written by liberals...
    People like today's liberals didn't exist back then. Much like asparatame.
    Last edited by Erod; 10-21-10 at 08:16 PM.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Right, but even for people who believe in evolution its a tough concept to grasp. It is really an incredibly vast timeframe we're talking about here. The typical layperson's understanding of evolution is that successive species gradually evolve into one another, but remember they like to think in neat little boxes. So a fish turns into a dinosaur turns into a monkey turns into a man. It is just too much for some people to fathom the billions of gradations that actually occur in that process, it's just beyond the processing power of the human brain to think in numbers that big.
    And while your brain continues to operate at a level just unconceivable to some, you still haven't the slightest of clues as to where evolution began. You conveniently ignore the single most important aspect of the discussion, and discount a higher being as impossible. Evolution to some degree is obvious, but the levels you want to take it to are still vastly unproven and not understood at all. Anybody's guess.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    The Constitution was written by liberals...
    Even the slave owners?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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