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Thread: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Now you're catching on. O'Donnells views on Evolution are irrelevant. Wouldn't it be nice if they would discuss matters of substance in debates rather than asking about crap like this?
    It's COD and her ilk that use the argument about local control of schools vs federal control -- where none exists on the federal level. They actually argue phantom arguments. It's pathetic, yet the 'people' fall for it.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajay View Post
    If homeschooling teaches Creationism and/or Intelligent Design as equal scientific theories to evolution, then we are in trouble. Many who homeschool may do a good job, but there are whole sects of people out there with issues that go beyond whether or not a public school in their are is failing. Ideological and religious tenets are a poor metric for education.
    We could drop evolution entirely and I doubt it would have much of an impact on the nation. There are dozens if not hundreds of topics more important to preparing individuals for success in life.

    But - politicians like to discuss evolution. It perks the interests of voters, where Jimmy's inability to read and do basic math at age 10 doesn't.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajay View Post
    Substance? When one candidate is obviously a fool? Sorry, but not liking the current system and being angry is no excuse for dumbing down the expectations of qualifications for a US Senate candidacy. COD's views are relevant in that they expose her for being the imbecile she is.
    I'm sure there are a lot of people who share your view. It's why politicians talk witchcraft and nazis rather than monetary policy and structural deficits.

    Funny thing is, you think it's the "other guy" dumbing things down.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It's not philisophical at all. The words are very clearly used and chosen. The establishiment clause as it's called is a prevention of the State from "establishing" a religion. It does not use language that identifies a separation of church and state. Anywhere. At all. The Constituion is not subjective - what IS subjective are the Supreme Court rulings and subjective philisophical adjudications that create a separation of church and state based on what I believe is a misinterpretation of the 1st Amendment that has now stood for 60+ years.

    I'd suggest reading of Rehnquists view in Jaffree as a good basis ...

    (edit - here's the link)
    Rehnquist, Wallace v. Jaffree: a Rebuttal


    The bottom line is yes, the founders did not want a national religion. They had that in England with King George and escaped it. But that does not mean that religion and public policy must at all times be separate. Yet O'Donnell is portrayed as an idiot - when she was correct. Establishment of religion and a separation of church and state are two different things...
    So what do you think separation of church and state means, what is the goal of people saying it exists??

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Don't know, don't care.


    "Evolution" when it refers to the body material taught in schools, is not "a fact."

    You may wish to define evolution as narrowly as needed to make your claim, but all you're doing is obfuscating.
    Evolution has already been defined... There is the fact of evolution and the theory of evolution. If you can't wrap your brain around that, then it's your problem.. not mine.

    Science isn't about obfuscating.. it's about testing ideas, theories, and laws, and improving them. Obfuscating is for people who don't like what the facts say.
    Last edited by SheWolf; 10-20-10 at 06:59 PM.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    So what do you think separation of church and state means, what is the goal of people saying it exists??
    I cannot know other people's minds and therefore their intent. I agree that the 1st Amendment prevents the creation of a Theocracy which is a good thing. Do I think therefore that the word "God" should be stricken from U.S. money? No. Do I think people praying on the steps of the Supreme Court should be told NOT to pray there because of some view that it's against the separation of church and state? No. Do I think it's ludicrous each Christmas, lawsuits and arguements occur over manger scene's on "public" propery? Absolutely. The Everson case did NOTHING and had NOTHING to do with increasing the separation of church and state yet it's cited as the bedrock legislation in which case law has challenged and attempted to drive out of the public domain --- Christianity. Not Judiasim, not Buddism, not Islam... Christianity. You make up your own mind what that means.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I cannot know other people's minds and therefore their intent. I agree that the 1st Amendment prevents the creation of a Theocracy which is a good thing. Do I think therefore that the word "God" should be stricken from U.S. money? No. Do I think people praying on the steps of the Supreme Court should be told NOT to pray there because of some view that it's against the separation of church and state? No. Do I think it's ludicrous each Christmas, lawsuits and arguements occur over manger scene's on "public" propery? Absolutely. The Everson case did NOTHING and had NOTHING to do with increasing the separation of church and state yet it's cited as the bedrock legislation in which case law has challenged and attempted to drive out of the public domain --- Christianity. Not Judiasim, not Buddism, not Islam... Christianity. You make up your own mind what that means.
    It means the law is being improperly applied, Buddhism, Judiasm, Islam, etc should be in the same boat. Religion should remain a personal matter, it is better for the religion and better for society.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    We could drop evolution entirely and I doubt it would have much of an impact on the nation.
    Considering how little people who criticize evolution actually know about it.. I would have to agree..

    Nonetheless, the most I ever learned about evolution was in college and not in a public school. I think we touched on some basic concepts, but it was never presented as part of evolutionary science. That might explain why some of you think it's just a bunch of loose concepts and factoids about getting taller..

    There are dozens if not hundreds of topics more important to preparing individuals for success in life.
    Ask Christine O'Donnel in a month... she might disagree



    But - politicians like to discuss evolution. It perks the interests of voters, where Jimmy's inability to read and do basic math at age 10 doesn't.
    Politicians on both sides like to talk about evolution.. The problem that I have with people making it a political issue, is that nowhere does science or evolution teach God doesn't exist. However, science has always been at odds with the religious community..

    Again.. it just goes back to understanding the scientific method. It's a great way to learn about logic and theory, and intellectual exchange of ideas.. design a hypothesis or a theory, improve theories.. constantly test them. If you don't really agree with some aspect of evolution.. guess what?

    If you know the scientific method, you take the steps to disprove evolution on a scientific level.

    Teaching kids science isn't about indoctrinating them.. it's about teaching them how to think for themselves
    Last edited by SheWolf; 10-20-10 at 07:14 PM.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I cannot know other people's minds and therefore their intent. I agree that the 1st Amendment prevents the creation of a Theocracy which is a good thing. Do I think therefore that the word "God" should be stricken from U.S. money? No. Do I think people praying on the steps of the Supreme Court should be told NOT to pray there because of some view that it's against the separation of church and state? No. Do I think it's ludicrous each Christmas, lawsuits and arguements occur over manger scene's on "public" propery? Absolutely. The Everson case did NOTHING and had NOTHING to do with increasing the separation of church and state yet it's cited as the bedrock legislation in which case law has challenged and attempted to drive out of the public domain --- Christianity. Not Judiasim, not Buddism, not Islam... Christianity. You make up your own mind what that means.
    I feel the same way about most of the things you are saying.. but I don't agree that Judaism, Buddhism, and Islam are treated better than Christianity.. If one religious group is allowed to display their religious speech on public property, then so should every other religious group.

    The Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion or the free exercise thereof." If people are interpreting it the same, but view it as meaning "separation of church and state".. then I don't have a problem with people using that phrase.

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    Re: O'Donnell Questions Separation of Church, State in Senate Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You're right, those words are not in the constitution. It is phrased differently, but its in the first amendment.
    Those words aren't in the 1st Amendment, no matter how you think they may be phrased. The only thing that the 1st Amendment says, is that the United States government can't create a state sanctioned religion. The purpose being, to prevent a theocracy.

    There's nothing there that says the 10 Commandments can't be displayed on government property, nor that a Nativity scene can't be displayed in front of a volunteer fire station. It means, that any religion is allowed to display religious items at those places and the government can't show preference to any one religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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