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Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

You might have a point if it wasn't for the fact that the same thing is being repeated all over Europe.

I doubt it is being said by anyone but far right wingers across Europe.
And if "all over Europe" includes E Europe. I will laugh because Eastern Europe's attitude towards immigration is well known

I can be British alot easier than a Immigrant can call itself German. That is a failure on Germany's part as well as the Immigrants.
 
I actually agree with Merkel. Germany’s brand of multiculturalism was absolutely doomed to fail. As Laila said, immigrants were always seen as “guest workers” who would eventually go back to their own country. That didn’t happen. The immigrants stayed and had kids who were still considered “guests” in the country they were being born and raised in. German citizenship is based on jus sanguinis, so being born there does not automatically grant you citizenship unless one of your parents is German. Since everyone assumed these immigtants would all go away eventually, there was never any real effort to integrate them into German society. As a result, a lot of them keep to themselves and live in this parallel society which creates the inevitable clashes whenever the two vastly different cultures come into contact.

Immigrating to Europe is never easy. Each country’s culture is very old and very much reluctant to change and unwilling to adapt to new comers. It’s hard enough for Europeans themselves to move from one country to another and be accepted, I can only imagine how much more difficult it is for people from a completely different part of the world to try and fit in.

I absolutely believe that immigrants have an obligation to do all they possibly can to integrate into their new country, abide by the local laws, learn about and respect local customs and traditions and learn the local language. At the same time, I believe it’s the host country’s responsibility to make this process as easy as possible for the new comers. It’s in everyone’s best interests, natives and immigrants alike, to have a society that is diverse, but that can still function under the same values, laws and traditions indigenous to the host country.

It’s really not rocket science.
 
These "cultures" were, and are, all characteristics within the Canadian culture. Thus you could speak with a person from Quebec or Newfoundland and still recognize their "Canadianness". Thats true of people within any established nation. If you were to travel to Finland or India you might see some differences but there would be no denying their shared culture in each of these countries.

But what the Canadian government tried to do, and other governments tried the same during similar times, was to ignore Canadianess. In fact one Minister said that Canada had no culture and then sought out ways to destroy it.

Myths of Immigration

You are confusing an overall culture with facets within that culture, and they might be many. But culture necessarily includes a bond among the people of a nation, multiculturalism does not..

Bullz. Everyone knows them Québécois aren't real Canadianz. :D
 
In the example you gave of husbands forcing women into mummy suits, the LIBERAL viewpoint would be to assail it as an abrogation of individual rights. The multiculturalist approach, however, is to look the other way as long as the woman, herself, has accepted the practice of her own degradation due to the ingraned practice thereof as part and parcel of the culture in which she has been indoctrinated.

Multiculturalism, in this case, is clearly at odds with true liberalism.

If the woman accepts the idea of wearing the hijab I see no conflict with liberal values. So long as it is her choice then there is nothing wrong with it whatsoever.
 
No, it is not working iin Canada, Orion and I'm Canadian also. Unless Canada's policies towards Immigration soon change dramatically, or we fail to stick to the traditional rights we inherited from our forefathers, then we'll have the same problems as Europe. As evidence we can already see curtailments in place regarding free speech, a free press, and assembly.

We're not losing those rights because of immigration, but for the same reason the U.S. is losing them: statist government and expansion of the powers of the aristocracy. The corporate socialism in Canada is just as bad if not worse than in the United States. Neo-liberal economic philosophy and big business are overriding individual rights, and it is mostly the neo-cons who are at the helm of that. Immigration is actually increasing at the hands of the right wing even though they simultaneously decry it. The only main difference between liberal and conservative philosophy is how the immigrants are treated after they arrive and what sorts of help they get, but honestly the differences are not that large.

Or anyone with functioning powers of observation.

This is just a trite way of saying you think you're right and I'm wrong.

Democracies have always accepted immigrants but it is part of the immigrants responsibility to adapt somewhat to their host country's culture, traditions and laws. Saying it is all the fault of the hosts is silly. It's wise to follow the "when in Rome" adage or resentments, and worse, tend to follow.

No, the tradition of democracies has been to exploit immigrants. People often attack the southern U.S. for having had slaves but places like New York were judging the admission of people like the Irish (who were called "white niggers") and the Poles based on their physical ability to do hard labour. For example the Poles were judged on shoulder width and were sent to the mines. (The word slave comes from Slav, the ethnicity.) Many immigrants in NYC lived in conditions worse than slaves in the south, i.e. having no heat in the winter. And this is all the way up to the 1890's, we're not talking proto-America here. I mention NYC because the same sorts of behaviours happened in Canada when places like Toronto were under construction. Our cities were built on immigration.

People opposed to multicultural policy usually only do so based on racial grounds, even if they don't know it. We bring them into our nations to exploit them as we always have because we need them, but then we simultaneously limit their social mobility because we want them to do the dirty work and we don't want them to have our privilege. Tell me, within Germany, how many first generation Germans are in political office? How many wield any power of any kind? It's no wonder then that they form enclaves and start to hate the status quo.

If the right wing is trying to seem anti-multicultural now it's only because there are social tensions that they can play off of to get public support; but make no mistake, they fully supported the loosening of immigration policies in order to bring in fresh blood for the lower class work force.
 
In the example you gave of husbands forcing women into mummy suits, the LIBERAL viewpoint would be to assail it as an abrogation of individual rights. The multiculturalist approach, however, is to look the other way as long as the woman, herself, has accepted the practice of her own degradation due to the ingraned practice thereof as part and parcel of the culture in which she has been indoctrinated.

Multiculturalism, in this case, is clearly at odds with true liberalism.

I don't agree. The reason why liberals are against forcing women to remove their burkas has its roots in feminism. We think that by forcing them to take it off that we are freeing them, but if it is not their empowered choice to do so it is actually moving against their freedom to choose, which is the entire basis of being in the free world in the first place. It is essentially a contradiction of our own western notions of individual rights. It's compounded further by the fact that these women aren't even given a voice in the media when the burka debates are happening. It seems to be talked about in passing where we objectify them as these pariahs, but no one really gets to hear from them about how most of these women want to wear them as a symbol of their faith. Again, the suppression of their voice is anti-feminist and contrary to our perceptions of freedom.

The point of them being in Canada is that they can practice their beliefs - however archaic we see them - and through seeing the array of other cultures around them they may, perhaps, make the empowered choice to remove their burka. Or maybe not. As long as they are not violating our laws or our constitution then they can do what they want.

The hatred for Muslims in the western world is higher than it has been in more than a century and so this new found concern for women who wear burkas is based on that and not much else. Suddenly everyone is an 'expert' on Islam and what is good for these women but it's just a bunch of mainstream BS.
 
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Orion
We're not losing those rights because of immigration

We are losing our traditional rights in Canada because of 'militant immigration', to coin a phrase. Thus we have recently arrived immigrants saying what may or may not be published in Canadian media and the media, and individuals, are having to pay many thousands of dollars to defend their right to free speech. And of course this free speech system seems only to be working in one direction in Canada, which is against that of traditional Canadian freedoms.

but for the same reason the U.S. is losing them:

can we avoid the European trap and not mention the United States when the debate does obviously not involve them?

statist government and expansion of the powers of the aristocracy. The corporate socialism in Canada is just as bad if not worse than in the United States. Neo-liberal economic philosophy and big business are overriding individual rights, and it is mostly the neo-cons who are at the helm of that. Immigration is actually increasing at the hands of the right wing even though they simultaneously decry it. The only main difference between liberal and conservative philosophy is how the immigrants are treated after they arrive and what sorts of help they get, but honestly the differences are not that large.

Can't you come up with some fresh ideas of your own without regurgitating this sort of claptrap nonsense?


This is just a trite way of saying you think you're right and I'm wrong.

I'll say it any way you want. But to be taken seriously you'll first need some fresh ideas of your own based on your own experience and not that of some magazine article you happened to read while sitting in a waiting room.

No, the tradition of democracies has been to exploit immigrants.

Democracies, at least in North America, have been formed by immigrants. This makes no sense.
People often attack the southern U.S. for having had slaves but places like New York were judging the admission of people like the Irish (who were called "white niggers") and the Poles based on their physical ability to do hard labour. For example the Poles were judged on shoulder width and were sent to the mines. (The word slave comes from Slav, the ethnicity.) Many immigrants in NYC lived in conditions worse than slaves in the south, i.e. having no heat in the winter. And this is all the way up to the 1890's, we're not talking proto-America here. I mention NYC because the same sorts of behaviours happened in Canada when places like Toronto were under construction.

If the subject is Canada let's stay there.

Our cities were built on immigration
.

Right. Our country was too. It is a nation of immigrants wanting a new life, and opportunities and freedoms they lacked elsewhere..
People opposed to multicultural policy usually only do so based on racial grounds, even if they don't know it.

Ahh, but you being wiser than most, know it.

We bring them into our nations to exploit them as we always have because we need them, but then we simultaneously limit their social mobility because we want them to do the dirty work and we don't want them to have our privilege.

Has this been your experience or have you read this in a textbook of some kind? It's gibberish.

Tell me, within Germany, how many first generation Germans are in political office? How many wield any power of any kind? It's no wonder then that they form enclaves and start to hate the status quo.

How many first generations anywhere hold political office? Are recent arrivals expected to hold political office solely because they just got there? Is that's all that's necessary? The question is whether or not they're being denied political office, or any other rights that other Canadians hold.
If the right wing is trying to seem anti-multicultural now it's only because there are social tensions that they can play off of to get public support; but make no mistake, they fully supported the loosening of immigration policies in order to bring in fresh blood for the lower class work force.

Perhaps you can name names and some specific policies here rather than just hurling empty phrases into the dark..
 
We are losing our traditional rights in Canada because of 'militant immigration', to coin a phrase. Thus we have recently arrived immigrants saying what may or may not be published in Canadian media and the media, and individuals, are having to pay many thousands of dollars to defend their right to free speech. And of course this free speech system seems only to be working in one direction in Canada, which is against that of traditional Canadian freedoms.

What are "traditional rights", exactly? There is no difference between our stated rights now and what they were 40 years ago; the only difference is that they are now being encroached upon and immigrants are not the source.

Militant immigration? That is simply non-sense. If immigrants are using the system that's already in place to enforce Canadian laws, then I say good. Hate speech is part of that, unlike in the U.S. Your attitude is pretty typical... that the immigrants are taking over. They're not. Immigrants have zero power in this country. Even most professionals who went to school for 10+ years in their country of origin to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. move here and we make it virtually impossible for them to resume their lives. We keep them at the bottom for the most part and that's the way it's always been. Immigrants have not been part of our "traditional rights" in practice because we treat them as labour to be exploited.

can we avoid the European trap and not mention the United States when the debate does obviously not involve them?

What European trap? The only thing happening to Europe right now is the result of their own immigration policies backfiring in their faces. Most European nations are not meeting replacement in their populations; they need foreign labour to make ends meet, but they don't want to give immigrants a say in their society. In other words, they want to have their cake and eat it too. That is Europe's history and legacy... a bunch of bourgeois whose palace is built on the back of the rest of the world. I don't have much sympathy for nations that are now experiencing sectarian violence or rebellions within their cultural enclaves which they helped create. The systems there only make token attempts to integrate these people.

The western world has been in stagnant decay since the end of the Cold War, the U.S. being the exception until the past 15 years or so, and that's only because its foreign policy has guaranteed it access to what it needs to survive.

Can't you come up with some fresh ideas of your own without regurgitating this sort of claptrap nonsense?

Can you come up with a sound, rational and intellectual rebuttal without all of these meaningless platitudes about how defective my arguments are?

I'll say it any way you want. But to be taken seriously you'll first need some fresh ideas of your own based on your own experience and not that of some magazine article you happened to read while sitting in a waiting room.

I have a university education on these issues but more importantly I have spent more time in "developing" nations (a trite terminology) than you have, so please take your assumptions and shove it.

Democracies, at least in North America, have been formed by immigrants. This makes no sense.

Democracies in North America were formed by people who came from parts of the world where people and resources were being exploited for the sake of luxury; they brought those same practices here and then revised the history to make us feel good and happy about it. Fact is, we did not build our own cities; we imported de facto slaves and indentured servants to do it. That's not my opinion, that's just the way it is. We have only recently started to emerge from an era where human exploitation was common and a fact of life.

If the subject is Canada let's stay there.

You can't talk about Canada without talking about the rest of the western world. Canada is an apple that fell from the same tree as the United States and all of the other colonies of the west.

Right. Our country was too. It is a nation of immigrants wanting a new life, and opportunities and freedoms they lacked elsewhere.

I'm not glossing over the fact that many people were able to arrive here and make a new live for themselves that was comparatively better than where they came from; but you can't take that and say that no exploitation happened. You can't deny that there were serious and wide inequities that remained for a long, long time and in many ways they remain to do this day. It was widespread and endemic. The western world has been at war for centuries with all corners of the globe in order to procure cheap labour and luxury goods: coffee, sugar, tea, chocolate, soy. You have no idea how many people have died at the hands of our governments just so that we can live in the lap of excess.

Ahh, but you being wiser than most, know it.

What I know is that governments use immigrants as a scapegoat to divert the public from their own domestic policy failures. Look at the economy right now... it sucks. The banking system is the #1 enemy of the western world right now but people wouldn't know it because they are too busy arguing over if Muslims are evil or not. The "war on terror" was the latest distortion so that the west can enter the middle east and free up capital for their own uses. So you tell me what our "real" problems are and keep touting that immigrants are the source because that line has been used over and over in history ad nauseum.

Has this been your experience or have you read this in a textbook of some kind? It's gibberish.

I don't read textbooks. Most of the tripe in those is made up by the people in power and it only serves to indoctrinate young people into this "we're the best" mentality when it's a total lie. The truth of our nations is that anything and everything happens under our governments. The rules we hold so dear are torn to shreds behind the scenes and they simply don't care.

If you don't even know the basic information about how our cities were built and the human suffering that that entailed, then I cannot help you. It's hardly subjective content. It's pretty established in academic circles.

How many first generations anywhere hold political office? Are recent arrivals expected to hold political office solely because they just got there? Is that's all that's necessary? The question is whether or not they're being denied political office, or any other rights that other Canadians hold.

I'm not talking about recent arrivals. Do you know what first generation means? It means you were born from immigrant parents but you yourself are a native citizen of the country your are born. Look at the cultural makeup of your government. I can promise you that it's mostly the power of the aristocracy: the power of white.

Perhaps you can name names and some specific policies here rather than just hurling empty phrases into the dark..

No thanks. I'm not going to do your work for you. If you can't even trust that I know what I'm talking about from years of study and travel, then what some other academic says is not going to matter all that much to you. I'm not really going to dig up my 4th year graduate work to satisfy someone who is in such deep denial about reality. :shrug:
 
I hope that Germany isn't waking up too late and will not allow themselves be intimidated by claims of intolerance and inevitable name calling. We past laws saying that separate but equal based on race is illegal so as an American I still believe we are a melting pot and as such we all blend together to make a better more solid outcome than if we were to remain separate.

We still have enclaves where some ethnic groups concentrate, and other than being a great place to by ethnic or eve exotic foods they contribute little to the over all fabric of the Nation. Locally I'm sure they contribute some but they also are the source of ethnic and gang violence.

I say Good for Merkel for having the guts to say it. The solution is another very tough question, I would have to give very serious thought to.
 
It's always cons or neo-cons who say it doesn't work.
OK, let's say it's so.
We have decades of recent history to study and only the cons come up with this line of thinking?
France, Germany, and even the enlightened Swedes have problems, to list three countries more enlightened than the rest (vomit icon). It doesn't take a con to notice them. Just an open mind.

According to the study highlighted in the article, 73 percent of Swedes see integration and immigration as a problem in the country
Swedes cite integration issues as a 'problem' - The Local

Probably because Germany made little effort to accept them. They were just "guest" workers and cheap labour :roll:
You would think the visitors would seek to integrate, especially their offspring, but it seems this hasn't happened. It's not like these guest workers arrived a few weeks ago; they've been in these countries for at least a generation, and usually for generations.

I hope that Germany isn't waking up too late and will not allow themselves be intimidated by claims of intolerance and inevitable name calling. We past laws saying that separate but equal based on race is illegal so as an American I still believe we are a melting pot and as such we all blend together to make a better more solid outcome than if we were to remain separate.

We still have enclaves where some ethnic groups concentrate, and other than being a great place to by ethnic or eve exotic foods they contribute little to the over all fabric of the Nation. Locally I'm sure they contribute some but they also are the source of ethnic and gang violence.

I say Good for Merkel for having the guts to say it. The solution is another very tough question, I would have to give very serious thought to.

Merkel's hand was pushed a bit by Seehofer's comments last week, and the book by Sarrazin (Germany Does Away With Itself), a few weeks before that started the ball rolling.

Germany played Turkey recently in Berlin in the Euro Soccer Championship Qualifier, and it was like the German team were visitors in their own Capital!

The uproar of Sarrazin's book tells you all you need to know, and many in the press didn't have thick enough skin to tolerate and open the discussion with Sarrazin's or Seehofer's comments. They simply condemned both men and basically stated there is no place for such comments. That's the product of MultiKulti right there. No Hard Talk allowed.

Too many Germans have a fork in their brain on this issue, much like the Obama administration has a fork in their brain about illegals in the US (as noted by their lawsuit against AZ). It will take a lot of time before this changes, as such people are quickly labeled intolerant and Rechts Radikal for not accepting the MultiKulti BS.

Germany has dug itself a deep hole, and a few weeks discussion isn't going to accomplish much, but it could be the start of a long journey. It's going to take years and years to undo the Multikulti BS sold to the public.

.
 
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-- You would think the visitors would seek to integrate, especially their offspring, but it seems this hasn't happened. It's not like these guest workers arrived a few weeks ago; they've been in these countries for at least a generation, and usually for generations--

I don't think you read and understood what Arcana or Laila or even Merkel before her actually wrote. How can you integrate into a society that tries to keep you separate? I'm talking about Germany here as it was Merkel that said this.

The US and other countries have programs and policies to help integration but if it's a one way only process then even those immigrants who wish to become German and integrate and add positively to the new culture can't do so because the politicians and culture think you're going to work for Mercedes for a couple of years then go home.
 
You would think the visitors would seek to integrate, especially their offspring, but it seems this hasn't happened. It's not like these guest workers arrived a few weeks ago; they've been in these countries for at least a generation, and usually for generations.

No, those "guests" were seen as only that by the German's. They were not seen as Germans. That is the problem.
How can one expect a Immigrant to integrate into society when they are told they are not German? At least in US, Immigrants can claim the name of American when they are sufficently integrated. That is not possible in Germany and other countries.

Merkel is right. GERMAN multi culturalism has failed. It never truly accepted Immigrants and I doubt it ever will. There is German and then there is "other" (Other being the Immigrant). When you go German, there is a clear separation between what is a "German" and who is not. That septation re-enforced by the State is not how society should grow. The Immigrants in Germany have isolated themselves as a result and I don't blame them when they are constantly told they do not belong.
That problem does not exist as widely in UK or other European countries. They were not so stupid to assume that cheap labour would go straight afterward.

Germany allowed all those Turks and other groups in as "guest workers" to help rebuild it after the ruins of WWII because they were cheap bastards and wanted cheap labour, and then made the arrogant assumption that as soon as it was done they would eventually leave. They wanted to have their cake and eat it. When it was clear that they would not as there are now generations who live there, the government is scrambling to deal with the concept of multiculturalism in the first place ... :roll:
 
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No, those "guests" were seen as only that by the German's. They were not seen as Germans. That is the problem.
How can one expect a Immigrant to integrate into society when they are told they are not German? At least in US, Immigrants can claim the name of American when they are sufficently integrated. That is not possible in Germany and other countries.
Second and third generation and they haven't integrated. Sorry, not buying it. Neither are the Swedes.

Germany allowed all those Turks and other groups in as "guest workers" to help rebuild it after the ruins of WWII because they were cheap bastards and wanted cheap labour, and then made the arrogant assumption that as soon as it was done they would eventually leave. They wanted to have their cake and eat it. When it was clear that they would not as there are now generations who live there, the government is scrambling to deal with the concept of multiculturalism in the first place ... :roll:
1. These guest workers were never forced to go anywhere, and they came because the money was pretty good and work was plentiful.

2. I don't know if it's an arrogant assumption... it's what government "planned" for, and once again... government failed. I'm sure the guest workers were told before what the score was; could be wrong. Don't know the original law that brought them in; do you?

3. Cake and eat it? And you claim they "would not" leave... so why not integrate then? Especially after several generations? Want to talk about having your cake and eat it???!!!

.
 
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[

No, it is not working iin Canada, Orion and I'm Canadian also. Unless Canada's policies towards Immigration soon change dramatically, or we fail to stick to the traditional rights we inherited from our forefathers, then we'll have the same problems as Europe. As evidence we can already see curtailments in place regarding free speech, a free press, and assembly.


Or anyone with functioning powers of observation.


I guess we have them in Canada too, folks.



Democracies have always accepted immigrants but it is part of the immigrants responsibility to adapt somewhat to their host country's culture, traditions and laws. Saying it is all the fault of the hosts is silly. It's wise to follow the "when in Rome" adage or resentments, and worse, tend to follow.
This is called the melting pot theory of which multiculturalism is the opposing force. The purpose of multiculturalism is to divide nations and break them down, by dividing people along issues that can't be changed. You can't change the race of a person, so you make this the wedge issue.
 
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I don't agree. The reason why liberals are against forcing women to remove their burkas has its roots in feminism. We think that by forcing them to take it off that we are freeing them, but if it is not their empowered choice to do so it is actually moving against their freedom to choose, which is the entire basis of being in the free world in the first place. It is essentially a contradiction of our own western notions of individual rights.


In exactly the same way that the continuation of slavery in this country in the 19th century would have represented civil rights. You see, since so many house slaves expressed satisfaction with their lot, then supporting slavery was really the way to show your support for the empowerment of African Americans to make that choice! After all, slavery was the entire basis of the free world in the first place!

Yep -- let's use the fact that some have been beaten down so thoroughly as to accept their own second class status to support an entire system of degradation and then claim we are actually supporting the opposite of what we are supporting.

Hey, look, Orion -- I found a few gay people who think gay people are mentally ill and should be institutionalized. To show my support, I'm going to put you in a straight jacket and lock you away.

What all of you self-proclaimed study has failed to show you is that your support for the most regressive elements within a population hurts most those you have convinced yourself that you are somehow supporting. I'm reminded of those who support the corrupt Mullahs in Iran under the misapprehension they are somehow supporting Muslims in that all you are hurting are those people struggling for rights. You can toot your own horn and brag all you want about your education, but the repetition of hackneyed dogma does not an intellectual make. It is the ability to see through the sophistry and offer something original that is the true mark of an intellect you are so eager to claim for yourself.
 
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How can you integrate into a society that tries to keep you separate?

That's what multiculturalism IS -- preserving the distinctness of different cultures rather than encouraging assimilation.
 
In exactly the same way that the continuation of slavery in this country in the 19th century would have represented civil rights. You see, since so many house slaves expressed satisfaction with their lot, then supporting slavery was really the way to show your support for the empowerment of African Americans to make that choice! After all, slavery was the entire basis of the free world in the first place!

You ignore the most important part of his post:

The hatred for Muslims in the western world is higher than it has been in more than a century and so this new found concern for women who wear burkas is based on that and not much else. Suddenly everyone is an 'expert' on Islam and what is good for these women but it's just a bunch of mainstream BS.


I love how this rise of worry about Muslim women coincides with the dislike of the religion.
Don't bother pretending you or anyone else care about Muslim women's right in the West or anywhere else in the world. Hell your country single handedly has done more to ruin it than anyone else by its support of Royals and dictatorships

Oh and lol @ comparing it to Slavery. Seriously. LOL
 
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Second and third generation and they haven't integrated. Sorry, not buying it. Neither are the Swedes.

So don't buy it. It doesn't make it any less of a fact. Germany is not alone in this. Switzerland has the same problem. 20% of our population are foreigners, many of them 2nd even 3rd generation who STILL are made to feel like they don't belong. Not just that, but the path to citizenship is long, expensive and very demanding.


1. These guest workers were never forced to go anywhere, and they came because the money was pretty good and work was plentiful.

Well, duh. That's usually why people immigrate.

2. I don't know if it's an arrogant assumption... it's what government "planned" for, and once again... government failed. I'm sure the guest workers were told before what the score was; could be wrong. Don't know the original law that brought them in; do you?

They were given work permits and then residency permits, and all the while obtaining actual citizenship remained long, expensive and complicated and was never encouraged. Only recently was the law changed where foreign kids born in Germany can get citizenship when they reach their 23rd birthday, provided they actually ASK for it and their parents were residents for 5 to 8 years when the kid was born.

3. Cake and eat it? And you claim they "would not" leave... so why not integrate then? Especially after several generations? Want to talk about having your cake and eat it???!!!

The 2nd and 3rd generations are integrated up to a point. They speak German, have a German education and German friends. But they are constantly reminded that they are NOT German and don't really belong there. It's pretty much the same deal here in Switzerland. "Ausländer" are treated like second class citizens and citizenship is not given to just anybody who asks. Being Swiss is considered a privilege and you need to prove that you are 100% integrated in every way before they even give you chance.
 
So....

A right wing german claims says that Multiculturalism has failed. That immigrants are "not welcome"...

And some of you in this thread are having a bukkake session over this, claiming that she's absolutely right...

Since when did

A: The conservatives who support her claims in this thread, start listening to right wing germans.
B; The conservatives who support her claims in this thread, start listening to the leader of a "socialist" nation ;)
 
You ignore the most important part of his post:


I ignored the dogmatism , yes. I prefer expressions of original thought.

Yep -- support the burka or you don't like Muslims! That is SO deep, and so indicative of an extensive education.
 
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So....

A right wing german claims says that Multiculturalism has failed. That immigrants are "not welcome"...

And some of you in this thread are having a bukkake session over this, claiming that she's absolutely right...

Since when did

A: The conservatives who support her claims in this thread, start listening to right wing germans.
B; The conservatives who support her claims in this thread, start listening to the leader of a "socialist" nation ;)

She didn't say that they're not welcome. In fact, she said exactly the opposite. What she did say is that the German government failed these people big time. And in that, she is 100% correct.
 
So....

A right wing german claims says that Multiculturalism has failed. That immigrants are "not welcome"...

And some of you in this thread are having a bukkake session over this, claiming that she's absolutely right...

Since when did

A: The conservatives who support her claims in this thread, start listening to right wing germans.
B; The conservatives who support her claims in this thread, start listening to the leader of a "socialist" nation ;)

Yeah, how dare conservatives provide any insight on an issue where german socialists are concerned... conservatives never weigh in about such things. Are you for real? :roll:
 
That's what multiculturalism IS -- preserving the distinctness of different cultures rather than encouraging assimilation.

I'm not defending multiculturalism - I'm explaining to zimmer why he can't accuse Turks (OR any other ethnic groups) based in Germany of not trying to integrate - be they 1st gen or 5th gen immigrants.

If the dominant society doesn't allow or encourage migrants to become German, then there is no impetus to do so.
 
In exactly the same way that the continuation of slavery in this country in the 19th century would have represented civil rights. You see, since so many house slaves expressed satisfaction with their lot, then supporting slavery was really the way to show your support for the empowerment of African Americans to make that choice! After all, slavery was the entire basis of the free world in the first place!

Yep -- let's use the fact that some have been beaten down so thoroughly as to accept their own second class status to support an entire system of degradation and then claim we are actually supporting the opposite of what we are supporting.

Hey, look, Orion -- I found a few gay people who think gay people are mentally ill and should be institutionalized. To show my support, I'm going to put you in a straight jacket and lock you away.

What all of you self-proclaimed study has failed to show you is that your support for the most regressive elements within a population hurts most those you have convinced yourself that you are somehow supporting. I'm reminded of those who support the corrupt Mullahs in Iran under the misapprehension they are somehow supporting Muslims in that all you are hurting are those people struggling for rights. You can toot your own horn and brag all you want about your education, but the repetition of hackneyed dogma does not an intellectual make. It is the ability to see through the sophistry and offer something original that is the true mark of an intellect you are so eager to claim for yourself.

The Quran says women should wear the hijab. If a devout Muslim woman believes she should wear the hijab then it is no different from a nun wearing a habit. Are nuns oppressed? Should we force nuns to stop wearing habits?
 
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