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Thread: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'm not saying that the women in burkas are feminists per se, though there are undoubtedly some among them who are. I am saying that it is the western feminists who are attacking these women and forcing them to remove the burka that are going against their own feminist values, and the politics around the war on terror is what's enabling them to behave this way. It's not empowerment if the women are being forced to remove the burka... you cannot sidestep this fact. It has nothing to do with "freeing" the women but about asserting cultural superiority: i.e. we think wearing burkas is wrong and so we won't let these women wear them in our society.

    If this was about liberation and freedom, they would still be allowed to wear them and to remove them at their own discretion. You can't call a dog a cat and expect it to stick. This is not granting freedom but imposing a restriction on it. The fact that you state it as a value of fighting the spread of conservativism only proves further that this is about placing restrictions as a mode of fighting the perceived spread of Islam, and not about freedom itself. If this were about freedom, then all of Europe could convert to Islam for all we care, since people have the empowered choice to do so.

    Guess what? That picture you posted? Women in that country don't have the freedom to choose either. They aren't allowed to remove the burka. It is just the other side of coin where we are not allowing them to wear it.
    Look at that photo again, for crying out loud! Would you wear such garb if you didn't have too??

    Women are being beaten on the streets, arrested in some areas, if they don't wear it.

    What sick minds there are out there!!

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Look at that photo again, for crying out loud! Would you wear such garb if you didn't have too??
    In Saudi Arabia yes it is compulsory.

    Not in the West so many who do wear it choose to wear a burqa


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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Guess what? That picture you posted? Women in that country don't have the freedom to choose either. They aren't allowed to remove the burka. It is just the other side of coin where we are not allowing them to wear it.
    France: Giving women their freedom by taking away their freedom. :/


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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Look at that photo again, for crying out loud! Would you wear such garb if you didn't have too??
    Only if it was cold out.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    3.5 million Turks and more coming... and have been coming for 50-years. Yet, integration is a problem. Doesn't matter if Germans haven't been the most welcoming. What's the best way to solve the problem? Integrate. Instead they seek Sharia Law, and mob the cops when there's a dispute.

    I can understand why foreigners in Switzerland have problems. Who the hell can understand Schweizerdeutsch?


    Swedish immigration problem was due to taking droves of folks from the Balkans.

    Life in these countries is expensive, complicated... but somehow they manage.

    And?

    May I introduce you to Berlin.

    Integrate then! The second generation will have the benefit of living in the culture, assimilating, and lacking an akzent. Or are you saying the Swiss are actually racists?

    .
    You keep saying "integrate!!!" as if that is the solution to the problem. It's not. You have to understand that subsequent generations of immigrants, the ones who are born and raised in Germany, are quite well integrated. They speak without an accent, they are immersed in the local culture. Yet that is STILL not enough for them to be considered equalsto "real Germans".

    This is not specific to Germany. It happens all over Western Europe to some degree or another. Even in France or Switzerland, where immigrants are pretty much forced to integrate and learn the language if they want to be able to function in society at all, they're still considered "étrangers", "Ausländer", guest workers the natives put up with because they do the jobs no one else wants to do. Immigrants who make the effort to fully integrate into their new country are STILL not accepted. It's still not good enough. Do you have any idea how damaging that is?

    Many immigrants do their part and assimilate completely. It's time governments start doing their part too and help them with the integration process and simplify the path to citizenship as much as possible, instead of making it harder or next to impossible as is still too often the case. It works both ways. There has to be some give and take or it's never going to work. We'll end up with frustrated and dejected youths, just like the young French Muslims, who are made to feel like second class citizens in their own freaking country.
    Last edited by Arcana XV; 10-20-10 at 04:18 AM.
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Look at that photo again, for crying out loud! Would you wear such garb if you didn't have too??

    Women are being beaten on the streets, arrested in some areas, if they don't wear it.

    What sick minds there are out there!!
    Are we speaking two different languages here? Are you not reading what I'm saying or something?

    It does not matter who would "want" to wear a burka or not. The fact of the matter is, it's not the place of government to be telling these people what they can and cannot wear in public. Does that not compute with you? Telling a woman she is not allowed to wear a burka is just as bad as telling her that she MUST wear one. Either way, freedom is usurped.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by chevydriver1123 View Post
    Im Hispanic so dont give me that dribble.
    I don't care what you are, it's a fact.
    "C'est le dernier qui a parlé qui a raison"
    Amina.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    01/26/2009
    Special: Muslims in Europe
    Immigration
    Survey Shows Alarming Lack of Integration in Germany

    A third of all children born in Germany belong to immigrant families, but many immigrants are poorly integrated into German society. A new study has shown that Turks in particular are faring poorly in Germany.

    A new study has delivered a damning verdict on the integration of Germany's immigrants, concluding that an alarmingly high percentage of them live in a parallel world with poor prospects of a decent education and career advancement.

    But many Turks who came to Germany as guest workers decades ago didn't want to become part of German society, they wanted to earn money there and return home after a few years. That didn't happen, though. The Turks stayed on, but it seems that their original attitude hasn't changed. They formed ghettos and didn't establish much contact with Germans, and all that made it harder for their children to find a place in German society.

    According to one recent survey, two-thirds of immigrant children still can't read adequately at the end of their fourth year in school. The situation is especially bad in big cities with high proportions of immigrants such as Berlin, Hamburg and Bremen.

    ...it is tempting to wonder how much of such an attitude results from the Turkish tendency to congregate in insular neighborhoods in Germany's big cities.

    Author Serap Cileli, herself the victim of a forced marriage, says: "Faith plays a major role in the failed integration of Turks." For more than 10 years she has been helping Muslim women who have become victims of domestic violence. "Every day I see the suffering of Muslim girls and women who never get a chance in their conservative Muslim world to take part in German life," she says.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...603588,00.html
    You do not need government to set up integration; as a child of immigrants, mine didn't require a government program, school, hand holding to have them integrate... they did it themselves, including learning the language; which wasn't easy. In fact, my Mother integrated into new societies thrice; as a result she speaks four languages fluently. These failed integrators have had generations, and folks like you (especially when they find themselves elected to places like the Bundestag) make it worse by making excuses for them.

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    You keep saying "integrate!!!" as if that is the solution to the problem. It's not. You have to understand that subsequent generations of immigrants, the ones who are born and raised in Germany, are quite well integrated.
    Little Istanbul... aka Berlin is not what you would call integrated. Did you happen to see the soccer game between Germany and Turkey, where the Germans were foreigners in their own state capital? That's a pretty accurate snapshot.

    They speak without an accent, they are immersed in the local culture.
    ROTFLOL... see Der Spiegel above and... Try again.

    Yet that is STILL not enough for them to be considered equalsto "real Germans".
    This debate began with Sarrazin, followed up by Seehofer, with Merkel recently at bat has come about because these folks haven't integrated.

    This is not specific to Germany. It happens all over Western Europe to some degree or another. Even in France or Switzerland, where immigrants are pretty much forced to integrate and learn the language if they want to be able to function in society at all, they're still considered "étrangers", "Ausländer", guest workers the natives put up with because they do the jobs no one else wants to do.
    I know it's not specific to Germany; it runs from Stockholm to Sicily, Amsterdam to Klagenfurt. If you want to stay, if you want to shake the handle... then integrate. As stated before; if someone of color has problems... after integrating... are you saying these folks are racists?

    Immigrants who make the effort to fully integrate into their new country are STILL not accepted. It's still not good enough. Do you have any idea how damaging that is?
    You can integrate and not be a citizen, and fight for citizenship. What is damaging to their cause is not integrating; it causes resentment among the homegrown nationals.

    Many immigrants do their part and assimilate completely. It's time governments start doing their part too and help them with the integration process and simplify the path to citizenship as much as possible, instead of making it harder or next to impossible as is still too often the case.
    You site citizenship as a necessity to integration; I don't see it that way. And I don't believe citizenship should be easy.

    It works both ways. There has to be some give and take or it's never going to work.
    No, no, no. There need be assimilation, integration... first. Then thoughts about citizenship. The government need not give. First assimilate, and then we'll talk. Just like securing the borders in the US; first secure the borders, then we'll talk about what to do with the illegal mass that remains.

    We'll end up with frustrated and dejected youths, just like the young French Muslims, who are made to feel like second class citizens in their own freaking country.
    The French Muslims. How well have they integrated? They've had a half century... how well have they integrated? Mind you... the government tried with their Super Ghetto Projects, just as they did in the US... and all started well... but a short number of years later, government's do-gooder plan evolved into hell holes. In the US we tear them down, illustrating what a failure it is for government to stick their noses in such business.

    The solution is easy. Integrate... first.

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 10-20-10 at 07:02 AM.
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    I'm sure Emily Pankhurst is rolling in her grave. I wonder what her reaction would be to the fact in 21st Century Men are trying to tell Women what is acceptable or not to wear which is exactly what you are trying to do.



    Don't bring up feminist argument. You'll lose.
    Oh my... you're telling me that Muslim women are free birds?
    Really?

    Sorry, that rock don't fly.

    TILT/.

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    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    You do not need government to set up integration; as a child of immigrants, mine didn't require a government program, school, hand holding to have them integrate... they did it themselves, including learning the language; which wasn't easy. In fact, my Mother integrated into new societies thrice; as a result she speaks four languages fluently. These failed integrators have had generations, and folks like you (especially when they find themselves elected to places like the Bundestag) make it worse by making excuses for them.

    Little Istanbul... aka Berlin is not what you would call integrated. Did you happen to see the soccer game between Germany and Turkey, where the Germans were foreigners in their own state capital? That's a pretty accurate snapshot.

    ROTFLOL... see Der Spiegel above and... Try again.

    This debate began with Sarrazin, followed up by Seehofer, with Merkel recently at bat has come about because these folks haven't integrated.

    I know it's not specific to Germany; it runs from Stockholm to Sicily, Amsterdam to Klagenfurt. If you want to stay, if you want to shake the handle... then integrate. As stated before; if someone of color has problems... after integrating... are you saying these folks are racists?

    You can integrate and not be a citizen, and fight for citizenship. What is damaging to their cause is not integrating; it causes resentment among the homegrown nationals.

    You site citizenship as a necessity to integration; I don't see it that way. And I don't believe citizenship should be easy.

    No, no, no. There need be assimilation, integration... first. Then thoughts about citizenship. The government need not give. First assimilate, and then we'll talk. Just like securing the borders in the US; first secure the borders, then we'll talk about what to do with the illegal mass that remains.

    The French Muslims. How well have they integrated? They've had a half century... how well have they integrated? Mind you... the government tried with their Super Ghetto Projects, just as they did in the US... and all started well... but a short number of years later, government's do-gooder plan evolved into hell holes. In the US we tear them down, illustrating what a failure it is for government to stick their noses in such business.

    The solution is easy. Integrate... first.

    .
    I'm not disputing the findings in the Spiegel article. In fact, I pretty much agree that there is a huge problem with the Turkish community in Germany. I AGREE with Merkel. I've said as much earlier in the thread.

    My argument with you is that you seem to think that integration is the only solution and that it'll work as well in Europe as it does in North America. I'm not here to discuss the people who deliberately live in that parallel society. I already know they exist and they are part of the problem. I'm here to tell you that even those who do everything right DON'T get accepted anyway. And it's not about color, for chrissake. Don't you understand this happens to all foreigners, no matter where they come from? It happened to the first wave if Italian and Spanish immigrants. It happens to Canadians, like me. It happens to Americans, French, British. You should see how the German immigrants are treated in Swiss Germany.

    As for citizenship, I disagree with you. It should definitely be made easier, especially for those born in the country. Integration is much easier in the US because, once you're a permanent resident, a Green Card holder, the path to citizenship isn't very long or complicated. What's complicated is actually getting into the country legally, but that's another debate. The other thing the US offers that Germany doesn't, is automatic citizenship to those born on your soil. You may think it's insignificant, but I'll tell you one thing I know from recent personal experience. I recently obtained Swiss citizenship after nearly 20 years in this country. I feel different. My commitment to this country got stronger and I feel like I'm no longer an outsider. When I talk about Switzerland, I no longer say "they" like I used to. I say "we". Citizenship matters more than you think. I do agree that it shouldn't be given lightly, but when we're talking about people who were born, raised and educated in the country, if they don't deserve it, then who does?
    Last edited by Arcana XV; 10-20-10 at 07:50 AM.
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