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Thread: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    I ignored the dogmatism , yes. I prefer expressions of original thought.

    Yep -- support the burka or you don't like Muslims! That is SO deep, and so indicative of an extensive education.
    I'll reply to your other post later, but first I want you to resolve this otherwise I won't bother.

    Can you please explain what dogma I am expressing? AFAIK, that was an original thought that came from my own head.

    Please tell me how forcing women to remove their burkas against their will is empowering their choices in the free world? How is it NOT anti-feminist? To put it differently, how is it any different than looking down on modern women who decide to be housewives, given the other choices that they could make as "free" women?

    I didn't say "support the burka or you don't like Muslims", that is your own distortion. I am saying that the media hype around Islam as of the war on terror has created large numbers of pseudo-experts on Islam who think they have the background and education to decide what is best for Muslim women to wear. If this matter was so pertinent, people would have been speaking out against burkas in the western world 50 years ago when the western feminist movements were in full swing.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'll reply to your other post later, but first I want you to resolve this otherwise I won't bother.

    Can you please explain what dogma I am expressing? AFAIK, that was an original thought that came from my own head.

    Please tell me how forcing women to remove their burkas against their will is empowering their choices in the free world? How is it NOT anti-feminist? To put it differently, how is it any different than looking down on modern women who decide to be housewives, given the other choices that they could make as "free" women?

    I didn't say "support the burka or you don't like Muslims", that is your own distortion. I am saying that the media hype around Islam as of the war on terror has created large numbers of pseudo-experts on Islam who think they have the background and education to decide what is best for Muslim women to wear. If this matter was so pertinent, people would have been speaking out against burkas in the western world 50 years ago when the western feminist movements were in full swing.


    Just look at all those "feminists", orion. Impressive, huh?

    What you fail to understand is that even as you try to denigrate the educational level of those who do not indulge in your twisted sophistry of claiming the systematic degradation of women is actually some sort of system of empowerment, is that 50 years ago, the use of the burka was far less prevalent than it is today, and the segregation of the sexes was also far less prevalent. You are just so eager to support the most regressive elements in order to pursue your dogmatic position that you display you don't know a thing about that which you speak. The use of the Burka is INCREASING along with the virulence of the conservatism, and 50 years ago it was unknown in Europe, and isolated elsewhere.

    You have created quite the dichotomy here, and I have simply boiled it down to simpler terms. You have insulted the educational level of those who do not share in your lockstep orthodoxy, and have promoted the viewpoint that the systematic oppression of women is actually some sort of feminism. Anybody who disagrees is therefore uneducated.

    Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
    Last edited by Gardener; 10-19-10 at 11:38 AM.
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    At the current pace, Germany will be a predominantly middle eastern Muslim country in 20 years. Is that what they had in mind?

    These sects, and we've witnessed it in the U.S., more often than not have no interest in blending into the new culture they. They have no interest in learning the language, understanding the origin of their new country's laws or history, nothing.

    As is occurring throughout Europe, their goal is to build their population to the point that they become the majority in power. That's what Merkel is saying. The same thing is happening in England, France, and other European countries. And with the significant presence of radical Islamic cells within those borders, their is a growing fear to confront this issue. A mere cartoon can get you and your family killed.

    Take Texas for instance. We typically rank poorly in education, not because we don't have good schools... we do. However, we have a very large contingent of Hispanic students from across the border that bring test scores way down because they don't speak English at all. And the concern is, there is no push for them to learn in their communities. It is estimated that Hispanics will be the majority in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California within 25 years. Many don't feel they need to learn English because eventually it will be the second language to Spanish anyway.

    Meanwhile, we fiddle like Nero. Merkel is basically saying that, if something isn't done soon, Germany will not be Germanic anymore....soon.
    Last edited by Erod; 10-19-10 at 11:31 AM.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    So don't buy it. It doesn't make it any less of a fact. Germany is not alone in this. Switzerland has the same problem. 20% of our population are foreigners, many of them 2nd even 3rd generation who STILL are made to feel like they don't belong. Not just that, but the path to citizenship is long, expensive and very demanding.
    3.5 million Turks and more coming... and have been coming for 50-years. Yet, integration is a problem. Doesn't matter if Germans haven't been the most welcoming. What's the best way to solve the problem? Integrate. Instead they seek Sharia Law, and mob the cops when there's a dispute.

    I can understand why foreigners in Switzerland have problems. Who the hell can understand Schweizerdeutsch?

    Well, duh. That's usually why people immigrate.
    Swedish immigration problem was due to taking droves of folks from the Balkans.

    They were given work permits and then residency permits, and all the while obtaining actual citizenship remained long, expensive and complicated and was never encouraged.
    Life in these countries is expensive, complicated... but somehow they manage.

    Only recently was the law changed where foreign kids born in Germany can get citizenship when they reach their 23rd birthday, provided they actually ASK for it and their parents were residents for 5 to 8 years when the kid was born.
    And?

    The 2nd and 3rd generations are integrated up to a point.
    May I introduce you to Berlin.

    "Ausländer" are treated like second class citizens and citizenship is not given to just anybody who asks. Being Swiss is considered a privilege and you need to prove that you are 100% integrated in every way before they even give you chance.
    Integrate then! The second generation will have the benefit of living in the culture, assimilating, and lacking an akzent. Or are you saying the Swiss are actually racists?

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    At the current pace, Germany will be a predominantly middle eastern Muslim country in 20 years. Is that what they had in mind?

    These sects, and we've witnessed it in the U.S., more often than not have no interest in blending into the new culture they. They have no interest in learning the language, understanding the origin of their new country's laws or history, nothing.

    As is occurring throughout Europe, their goal is to build their population to the point that they become the majority in power. That's what Merkel is saying. The same thing is happening in England, France, and other European countries. And with the significant presence of radical Islamic cells within those borders, their is a growing fear to confront this issue. A mere cartoon can get you and your family killed.

    Take Texas for instance. We typically rank poorly in education, not because we don't have good schools... we do. However, we have a very large contingent of Hispanic students from across the border that bring test scores way down because they don't speak English at all. And the concern is, there is no push for them to learn in their communities. It is estimated that Hispanics will be the majority in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California within 25 years. Many don't feel they need to learn English because eventually it will be the second language to Spanish anyway.

    Meanwhile, we fiddle like Nero. Merkel is basically saying that, if something isn't done soon, Germany will not be Germanic anymore....soon.
    Alarmist much? Here:

    snopes.com: Muslim Demographics
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
    I'm sure Emily Pankhurst is rolling in her grave. I wonder what her reaction would be to the fact in 21st Century Men are trying to tell Women what is acceptable or not to wear which is exactly what you are trying to do.



    Don't bring up feminist argument. You'll lose.


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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by chevydriver1123 View Post
    It also shows that the US as a whole is alot more immigrant friendly than people realize.
    Just a shame you took so long to treat your own people decently if they weren't the right colour. We Europeans were mixing with and marrying blacks when you were still making them go to the back of the bus.
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    Just a shame you took so long to treat your own people decently if they weren't the right colour. We Europeans were mixing with and marrying blacks when you were still making them go to the back of the bus.
    Im Hispanic so dont give me that dribble.
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post


    Just look at all those "feminists", orion. Impressive, huh?

    What you fail to understand is that even as you try to denigrate the educational level of those who do not indulge in your twisted sophistry of claiming the systematic degradation of women is actually some sort of system of empowerment, is that 50 years ago, the use of the burka was far less prevalent than it is today, and the segregation of the sexes was also far less prevalent. You are just so eager to support the most regressive elements in order to pursue your dogmatic position that you display you don't know a thing about that which you speak. The use of the Burka is INCREASING along with the virulence of the conservatism, and 50 years ago it was unknown in Europe, and isolated elsewhere.

    You have created quite the dichotomy here, and I have simply boiled it down to simpler terms. You have insulted the educational level of those who do not share in your lockstep orthodoxy, and have promoted the viewpoint that the systematic oppression of women is actually some sort of feminism. Anybody who disagrees is therefore uneducated.

    Orwell must be rolling in his grave.
    I'm not saying that the women in burkas are feminists per se, though there are undoubtedly some among them who are. I am saying that it is the western feminists who are attacking these women and forcing them to remove the burka that are going against their own feminist values, and the politics around the war on terror is what's enabling them to behave this way. It's not empowerment if the women are being forced to remove the burka... you cannot sidestep this fact. It has nothing to do with "freeing" the women but about asserting cultural superiority: i.e. we think wearing burkas is wrong and so we won't let these women wear them in our society.

    If this was about liberation and freedom, they would still be allowed to wear them and to remove them at their own discretion. You can't call a dog a cat and expect it to stick. This is not granting freedom but imposing a restriction on it. The fact that you state it as a value of fighting the spread of conservativism only proves further that this is about placing restrictions as a mode of fighting the perceived spread of Islam, and not about freedom itself. If this were about freedom, then all of Europe could convert to Islam for all we care, since people have the empowered choice to do so.

    Guess what? That picture you posted? Women in that country don't have the freedom to choose either. They aren't allowed to remove the burka. It is just the other side of coin where we are not allowing them to wear it.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Erod
    At the current pace, Germany will be a predominantly middle eastern Muslim country in 20 years. Is that what they had in mind?
    That's certainly what many Muslim leaders had in mind.

    These sects, and we've witnessed it in the U.S., more often than not have no interest in blending into the new culture they. They have no interest in learning the language, understanding the origin of their new country's laws or history, nothing.
    And from their point of view, why should they? They already have their beliefs, customs and ways of life that are often deeply entrenched. What's happening is that the democracies are adapting to Islam. So far, they appear to be the stronger horse.


    As is occurring throughout Europe, their goal is to build their population to the point that they become the majority in power. That's what Merkel is saying. The same thing is happening in England, France, and other European countries. And with the significant presence of radical Islamic cells within those borders, their is a growing fear to confront this issue. A mere cartoon can get you and your family killed.
    They have really and seriously outsmarted the democracies. They have learned from the Chinese in Tibet. All the military might in the world will not save you from soft social policies and demographics.

    Take Texas for instance. We typically rank poorly in education, not because we don't have good schools... we do. However, we have a very large contingent of Hispanic students from across the border that bring test scores way down because they don't speak English at all. And the concern is, there is no push for them to learn in their communities. It is estimated that Hispanics will be the majority in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California within 25 years. Many don't feel they need to learn English because eventually it will be the second language to Spanish anyway.
    They may believe that but they are wrong. English speakers will still dominate the power positions and the smart Hispanics know that. The others will remain ghettoized and remain be political fodder.
    Meanwhile, we fiddle like Nero. Merkel is basically saying that, if something isn't done soon, Germany will not be Germanic anymore....soon.
    I believe its already too late.

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