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Thread: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    In the example you gave of husbands forcing women into mummy suits, the LIBERAL viewpoint would be to assail it as an abrogation of individual rights. The multiculturalist approach, however, is to look the other way as long as the woman, herself, has accepted the practice of her own degradation due to the ingraned practice thereof as part and parcel of the culture in which she has been indoctrinated.

    Multiculturalism, in this case, is clearly at odds with true liberalism.
    I don't agree. The reason why liberals are against forcing women to remove their burkas has its roots in feminism. We think that by forcing them to take it off that we are freeing them, but if it is not their empowered choice to do so it is actually moving against their freedom to choose, which is the entire basis of being in the free world in the first place. It is essentially a contradiction of our own western notions of individual rights. It's compounded further by the fact that these women aren't even given a voice in the media when the burka debates are happening. It seems to be talked about in passing where we objectify them as these pariahs, but no one really gets to hear from them about how most of these women want to wear them as a symbol of their faith. Again, the suppression of their voice is anti-feminist and contrary to our perceptions of freedom.

    The point of them being in Canada is that they can practice their beliefs - however archaic we see them - and through seeing the array of other cultures around them they may, perhaps, make the empowered choice to remove their burka. Or maybe not. As long as they are not violating our laws or our constitution then they can do what they want.

    The hatred for Muslims in the western world is higher than it has been in more than a century and so this new found concern for women who wear burkas is based on that and not much else. Suddenly everyone is an 'expert' on Islam and what is good for these women but it's just a bunch of mainstream BS.
    Last edited by Orion; 10-17-10 at 02:20 PM.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Bullz. Everyone knows them Québécois aren't real Canadianz.
    Well I like the buggers anyway!

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Orion
    We're not losing those rights because of immigration
    We are losing our traditional rights in Canada because of 'militant immigration', to coin a phrase. Thus we have recently arrived immigrants saying what may or may not be published in Canadian media and the media, and individuals, are having to pay many thousands of dollars to defend their right to free speech. And of course this free speech system seems only to be working in one direction in Canada, which is against that of traditional Canadian freedoms.

    but for the same reason the U.S. is losing them:
    can we avoid the European trap and not mention the United States when the debate does obviously not involve them?

    statist government and expansion of the powers of the aristocracy. The corporate socialism in Canada is just as bad if not worse than in the United States. Neo-liberal economic philosophy and big business are overriding individual rights, and it is mostly the neo-cons who are at the helm of that. Immigration is actually increasing at the hands of the right wing even though they simultaneously decry it. The only main difference between liberal and conservative philosophy is how the immigrants are treated after they arrive and what sorts of help they get, but honestly the differences are not that large.
    Can't you come up with some fresh ideas of your own without regurgitating this sort of claptrap nonsense?


    This is just a trite way of saying you think you're right and I'm wrong.
    I'll say it any way you want. But to be taken seriously you'll first need some fresh ideas of your own based on your own experience and not that of some magazine article you happened to read while sitting in a waiting room.

    No, the tradition of democracies has been to exploit immigrants.
    Democracies, at least in North America, have been formed by immigrants. This makes no sense.
    People often attack the southern U.S. for having had slaves but places like New York were judging the admission of people like the Irish (who were called "white niggers") and the Poles based on their physical ability to do hard labour. For example the Poles were judged on shoulder width and were sent to the mines. (The word slave comes from Slav, the ethnicity.) Many immigrants in NYC lived in conditions worse than slaves in the south, i.e. having no heat in the winter. And this is all the way up to the 1890's, we're not talking proto-America here. I mention NYC because the same sorts of behaviours happened in Canada when places like Toronto were under construction.
    If the subject is Canada let's stay there.

    Our cities were built on immigration
    .

    Right. Our country was too. It is a nation of immigrants wanting a new life, and opportunities and freedoms they lacked elsewhere..
    People opposed to multicultural policy usually only do so based on racial grounds, even if they don't know it.
    Ahh, but you being wiser than most, know it.

    We bring them into our nations to exploit them as we always have because we need them, but then we simultaneously limit their social mobility because we want them to do the dirty work and we don't want them to have our privilege.
    Has this been your experience or have you read this in a textbook of some kind? It's gibberish.

    Tell me, within Germany, how many first generation Germans are in political office? How many wield any power of any kind? It's no wonder then that they form enclaves and start to hate the status quo.
    How many first generations anywhere hold political office? Are recent arrivals expected to hold political office solely because they just got there? Is that's all that's necessary? The question is whether or not they're being denied political office, or any other rights that other Canadians hold.
    If the right wing is trying to seem anti-multicultural now it's only because there are social tensions that they can play off of to get public support; but make no mistake, they fully supported the loosening of immigration policies in order to bring in fresh blood for the lower class work force.
    Perhaps you can name names and some specific policies here rather than just hurling empty phrases into the dark..

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    We are losing our traditional rights in Canada because of 'militant immigration', to coin a phrase. Thus we have recently arrived immigrants saying what may or may not be published in Canadian media and the media, and individuals, are having to pay many thousands of dollars to defend their right to free speech. And of course this free speech system seems only to be working in one direction in Canada, which is against that of traditional Canadian freedoms.
    What are "traditional rights", exactly? There is no difference between our stated rights now and what they were 40 years ago; the only difference is that they are now being encroached upon and immigrants are not the source.

    Militant immigration? That is simply non-sense. If immigrants are using the system that's already in place to enforce Canadian laws, then I say good. Hate speech is part of that, unlike in the U.S. Your attitude is pretty typical... that the immigrants are taking over. They're not. Immigrants have zero power in this country. Even most professionals who went to school for 10+ years in their country of origin to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. move here and we make it virtually impossible for them to resume their lives. We keep them at the bottom for the most part and that's the way it's always been. Immigrants have not been part of our "traditional rights" in practice because we treat them as labour to be exploited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    can we avoid the European trap and not mention the United States when the debate does obviously not involve them?
    What European trap? The only thing happening to Europe right now is the result of their own immigration policies backfiring in their faces. Most European nations are not meeting replacement in their populations; they need foreign labour to make ends meet, but they don't want to give immigrants a say in their society. In other words, they want to have their cake and eat it too. That is Europe's history and legacy... a bunch of bourgeois whose palace is built on the back of the rest of the world. I don't have much sympathy for nations that are now experiencing sectarian violence or rebellions within their cultural enclaves which they helped create. The systems there only make token attempts to integrate these people.

    The western world has been in stagnant decay since the end of the Cold War, the U.S. being the exception until the past 15 years or so, and that's only because its foreign policy has guaranteed it access to what it needs to survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Can't you come up with some fresh ideas of your own without regurgitating this sort of claptrap nonsense?
    Can you come up with a sound, rational and intellectual rebuttal without all of these meaningless platitudes about how defective my arguments are?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I'll say it any way you want. But to be taken seriously you'll first need some fresh ideas of your own based on your own experience and not that of some magazine article you happened to read while sitting in a waiting room.
    I have a university education on these issues but more importantly I have spent more time in "developing" nations (a trite terminology) than you have, so please take your assumptions and shove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Democracies, at least in North America, have been formed by immigrants. This makes no sense.
    Democracies in North America were formed by people who came from parts of the world where people and resources were being exploited for the sake of luxury; they brought those same practices here and then revised the history to make us feel good and happy about it. Fact is, we did not build our own cities; we imported de facto slaves and indentured servants to do it. That's not my opinion, that's just the way it is. We have only recently started to emerge from an era where human exploitation was common and a fact of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    If the subject is Canada let's stay there.
    You can't talk about Canada without talking about the rest of the western world. Canada is an apple that fell from the same tree as the United States and all of the other colonies of the west.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Right. Our country was too. It is a nation of immigrants wanting a new life, and opportunities and freedoms they lacked elsewhere.
    I'm not glossing over the fact that many people were able to arrive here and make a new live for themselves that was comparatively better than where they came from; but you can't take that and say that no exploitation happened. You can't deny that there were serious and wide inequities that remained for a long, long time and in many ways they remain to do this day. It was widespread and endemic. The western world has been at war for centuries with all corners of the globe in order to procure cheap labour and luxury goods: coffee, sugar, tea, chocolate, soy. You have no idea how many people have died at the hands of our governments just so that we can live in the lap of excess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Ahh, but you being wiser than most, know it.
    What I know is that governments use immigrants as a scapegoat to divert the public from their own domestic policy failures. Look at the economy right now... it sucks. The banking system is the #1 enemy of the western world right now but people wouldn't know it because they are too busy arguing over if Muslims are evil or not. The "war on terror" was the latest distortion so that the west can enter the middle east and free up capital for their own uses. So you tell me what our "real" problems are and keep touting that immigrants are the source because that line has been used over and over in history ad nauseum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Has this been your experience or have you read this in a textbook of some kind? It's gibberish.
    I don't read textbooks. Most of the tripe in those is made up by the people in power and it only serves to indoctrinate young people into this "we're the best" mentality when it's a total lie. The truth of our nations is that anything and everything happens under our governments. The rules we hold so dear are torn to shreds behind the scenes and they simply don't care.

    If you don't even know the basic information about how our cities were built and the human suffering that that entailed, then I cannot help you. It's hardly subjective content. It's pretty established in academic circles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    How many first generations anywhere hold political office? Are recent arrivals expected to hold political office solely because they just got there? Is that's all that's necessary? The question is whether or not they're being denied political office, or any other rights that other Canadians hold.
    I'm not talking about recent arrivals. Do you know what first generation means? It means you were born from immigrant parents but you yourself are a native citizen of the country your are born. Look at the cultural makeup of your government. I can promise you that it's mostly the power of the aristocracy: the power of white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Perhaps you can name names and some specific policies here rather than just hurling empty phrases into the dark..
    No thanks. I'm not going to do your work for you. If you can't even trust that I know what I'm talking about from years of study and travel, then what some other academic says is not going to matter all that much to you. I'm not really going to dig up my 4th year graduate work to satisfy someone who is in such deep denial about reality.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    I hope that Germany isn't waking up too late and will not allow themselves be intimidated by claims of intolerance and inevitable name calling. We past laws saying that separate but equal based on race is illegal so as an American I still believe we are a melting pot and as such we all blend together to make a better more solid outcome than if we were to remain separate.

    We still have enclaves where some ethnic groups concentrate, and other than being a great place to by ethnic or eve exotic foods they contribute little to the over all fabric of the Nation. Locally I'm sure they contribute some but they also are the source of ethnic and gang violence.

    I say Good for Merkel for having the guts to say it. The solution is another very tough question, I would have to give very serious thought to.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    It's always cons or neo-cons who say it doesn't work.
    OK, let's say it's so.
    We have decades of recent history to study and only the cons come up with this line of thinking?
    France, Germany, and even the enlightened Swedes have problems, to list three countries more enlightened than the rest (vomit icon). It doesn't take a con to notice them. Just an open mind.

    According to the study highlighted in the article, 73 percent of Swedes see integration and immigration as a problem in the country
    Swedes cite integration issues as a 'problem' - The Local
    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Probably because Germany made little effort to accept them. They were just "guest" workers and cheap labour
    You would think the visitors would seek to integrate, especially their offspring, but it seems this hasn't happened. It's not like these guest workers arrived a few weeks ago; they've been in these countries for at least a generation, and usually for generations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    I hope that Germany isn't waking up too late and will not allow themselves be intimidated by claims of intolerance and inevitable name calling. We past laws saying that separate but equal based on race is illegal so as an American I still believe we are a melting pot and as such we all blend together to make a better more solid outcome than if we were to remain separate.

    We still have enclaves where some ethnic groups concentrate, and other than being a great place to by ethnic or eve exotic foods they contribute little to the over all fabric of the Nation. Locally I'm sure they contribute some but they also are the source of ethnic and gang violence.

    I say Good for Merkel for having the guts to say it. The solution is another very tough question, I would have to give very serious thought to.
    Merkel's hand was pushed a bit by Seehofer's comments last week, and the book by Sarrazin (Germany Does Away With Itself), a few weeks before that started the ball rolling.

    Germany played Turkey recently in Berlin in the Euro Soccer Championship Qualifier, and it was like the German team were visitors in their own Capital!

    The uproar of Sarrazin's book tells you all you need to know, and many in the press didn't have thick enough skin to tolerate and open the discussion with Sarrazin's or Seehofer's comments. They simply condemned both men and basically stated there is no place for such comments. That's the product of MultiKulti right there. No Hard Talk allowed.

    Too many Germans have a fork in their brain on this issue, much like the Obama administration has a fork in their brain about illegals in the US (as noted by their lawsuit against AZ). It will take a lot of time before this changes, as such people are quickly labeled intolerant and Rechts Radikal for not accepting the MultiKulti BS.

    Germany has dug itself a deep hole, and a few weeks discussion isn't going to accomplish much, but it could be the start of a long journey. It's going to take years and years to undo the Multikulti BS sold to the public.

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 10-18-10 at 07:55 AM.
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    -- You would think the visitors would seek to integrate, especially their offspring, but it seems this hasn't happened. It's not like these guest workers arrived a few weeks ago; they've been in these countries for at least a generation, and usually for generations--
    I don't think you read and understood what Arcana or Laila or even Merkel before her actually wrote. How can you integrate into a society that tries to keep you separate? I'm talking about Germany here as it was Merkel that said this.

    The US and other countries have programs and policies to help integration but if it's a one way only process then even those immigrants who wish to become German and integrate and add positively to the new culture can't do so because the politicians and culture think you're going to work for Mercedes for a couple of years then go home.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    You would think the visitors would seek to integrate, especially their offspring, but it seems this hasn't happened. It's not like these guest workers arrived a few weeks ago; they've been in these countries for at least a generation, and usually for generations.
    No, those "guests" were seen as only that by the German's. They were not seen as Germans. That is the problem.
    How can one expect a Immigrant to integrate into society when they are told they are not German? At least in US, Immigrants can claim the name of American when they are sufficently integrated. That is not possible in Germany and other countries.

    Merkel is right. GERMAN multi culturalism has failed. It never truly accepted Immigrants and I doubt it ever will. There is German and then there is "other" (Other being the Immigrant). When you go German, there is a clear separation between what is a "German" and who is not. That septation re-enforced by the State is not how society should grow. The Immigrants in Germany have isolated themselves as a result and I don't blame them when they are constantly told they do not belong.
    That problem does not exist as widely in UK or other European countries. They were not so stupid to assume that cheap labour would go straight afterward.

    Germany allowed all those Turks and other groups in as "guest workers" to help rebuild it after the ruins of WWII because they were cheap bastards and wanted cheap labour, and then made the arrogant assumption that as soon as it was done they would eventually leave. They wanted to have their cake and eat it. When it was clear that they would not as there are now generations who live there, the government is scrambling to deal with the concept of multiculturalism in the first place ...
    Last edited by Laila; 10-18-10 at 08:59 AM.


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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    No, those "guests" were seen as only that by the German's. They were not seen as Germans. That is the problem.
    How can one expect a Immigrant to integrate into society when they are told they are not German? At least in US, Immigrants can claim the name of American when they are sufficently integrated. That is not possible in Germany and other countries.
    Second and third generation and they haven't integrated. Sorry, not buying it. Neither are the Swedes.

    Germany allowed all those Turks and other groups in as "guest workers" to help rebuild it after the ruins of WWII because they were cheap bastards and wanted cheap labour, and then made the arrogant assumption that as soon as it was done they would eventually leave. They wanted to have their cake and eat it. When it was clear that they would not as there are now generations who live there, the government is scrambling to deal with the concept of multiculturalism in the first place ...
    1. These guest workers were never forced to go anywhere, and they came because the money was pretty good and work was plentiful.

    2. I don't know if it's an arrogant assumption... it's what government "planned" for, and once again... government failed. I'm sure the guest workers were told before what the score was; could be wrong. Don't know the original law that brought them in; do you?

    3. Cake and eat it? And you claim they "would not" leave... so why not integrate then? Especially after several generations? Want to talk about having your cake and eat it???!!!

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 10-18-10 at 09:10 AM.
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    [

    No, it is not working iin Canada, Orion and I'm Canadian also. Unless Canada's policies towards Immigration soon change dramatically, or we fail to stick to the traditional rights we inherited from our forefathers, then we'll have the same problems as Europe. As evidence we can already see curtailments in place regarding free speech, a free press, and assembly.


    Or anyone with functioning powers of observation.


    I guess we have them in Canada too, folks.



    Democracies have always accepted immigrants but it is part of the immigrants responsibility to adapt somewhat to their host country's culture, traditions and laws. Saying it is all the fault of the hosts is silly. It's wise to follow the "when in Rome" adage or resentments, and worse, tend to follow.
    This is called the melting pot theory of which multiculturalism is the opposing force. The purpose of multiculturalism is to divide nations and break them down, by dividing people along issues that can't be changed. You can't change the race of a person, so you make this the wedge issue.
    Last edited by American; 10-18-10 at 09:26 AM.
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