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Thread: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Germany's attempt to create a multicultural society has "utterly failed,"
    Probably because Germany made little effort to accept them. They were just "guest" workers and cheap labour


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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    A politician listening to her constituents does appear to make some sense. What would your alternative be?
    A politician seeking to mollify rightwing activists in a conservative party might appeal to baser instincts, but not to the constituency at large.
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Depends on what you mean by multiculturalism


    Typically in Canada it means being able to practice any cultural traditions you wish to, provided they do not break the law or the charter of rights. The laws themselves have to be in line with the charter of rights as well.\


    So a woman can choose to wear a hijab all she wants, and be within the law, but if her husband forced her to wear it, it would and is illegal. A person can go to temple all they want, or read books in Yiddish, or speak in Yiddish all day long, and it would be fine

    It is very liberal to accept people having different cultural practices as long as they still abid by the same set of laws that everyone else does, provided those laws are not discriminatory in nature
    Actually, the Multiculturalism practiced in Canada is heavily influenced by a fellow by the name of Will Kymlika, who proferred that John Rawls definitive work on the theories of social justice were actually some sort of display of western chauvenism, and that his universalist approach should not apply to the ingrained belief systems of other populations. In the example you gave of husbands forcing women into mummy suits, the LIBERAL viewpoint would be to assail it as an abrogation of individual rights. The multiculturalist approach, however, is to look the other way as long as the woman, herself, has accepted the practice of her own degradation due to the ingraned practice thereof as part and parcel of the culture in which she has been indoctrinated.

    Multiculturalism, in this case, is clearly at odds with true liberalism.
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Which Canadian culture was that? The one that existed in rural Quebec, or the one that exists in Newfoundland, or perhaps that up north in the NWT. There has never been one Canadian culture, but many cultures, the main thing holding Canada togethe was and is the common set of laws that should apply equally
    These "cultures" were, and are, all characteristics within the Canadian culture. Thus you could speak with a person from Quebec or Newfoundland and still recognize their "Canadianness". Thats true of people within any established nation. If you were to travel to Finland or India you might see some differences but there would be no denying their shared culture in each of these countries.

    But what the Canadian government tried to do, and other governments tried the same during similar times, was to ignore Canadianess. In fact one Minister said that Canada had no culture and then sought out ways to destroy it.

    Myths of Immigration

    You are confusing an overall culture with facets within that culture, and they might be many. But culture necessarily includes a bond among the people of a nation, multiculturalism does not..

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Probably because Germany made little effort to accept them. They were just "guest" workers and cheap labour
    You might have a point if it wasn't for the fact that the same thing is being repeated all over Europe.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You might have a point if it wasn't for the fact that the same thing is being repeated all over Europe.
    I doubt it is being said by anyone but far right wingers across Europe.
    And if "all over Europe" includes E Europe. I will laugh because Eastern Europe's attitude towards immigration is well known

    I can be British alot easier than a Immigrant can call itself German. That is a failure on Germany's part as well as the Immigrants.


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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    I actually agree with Merkel. Germany’s brand of multiculturalism was absolutely doomed to fail. As Laila said, immigrants were always seen as “guest workers” who would eventually go back to their own country. That didn’t happen. The immigrants stayed and had kids who were still considered “guests” in the country they were being born and raised in. German citizenship is based on jus sanguinis, so being born there does not automatically grant you citizenship unless one of your parents is German. Since everyone assumed these immigtants would all go away eventually, there was never any real effort to integrate them into German society. As a result, a lot of them keep to themselves and live in this parallel society which creates the inevitable clashes whenever the two vastly different cultures come into contact.

    Immigrating to Europe is never easy. Each country’s culture is very old and very much reluctant to change and unwilling to adapt to new comers. It’s hard enough for Europeans themselves to move from one country to another and be accepted, I can only imagine how much more difficult it is for people from a completely different part of the world to try and fit in.

    I absolutely believe that immigrants have an obligation to do all they possibly can to integrate into their new country, abide by the local laws, learn about and respect local customs and traditions and learn the local language. At the same time, I believe it’s the host country’s responsibility to make this process as easy as possible for the new comers. It’s in everyone’s best interests, natives and immigrants alike, to have a society that is diverse, but that can still function under the same values, laws and traditions indigenous to the host country.

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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    These "cultures" were, and are, all characteristics within the Canadian culture. Thus you could speak with a person from Quebec or Newfoundland and still recognize their "Canadianness". Thats true of people within any established nation. If you were to travel to Finland or India you might see some differences but there would be no denying their shared culture in each of these countries.

    But what the Canadian government tried to do, and other governments tried the same during similar times, was to ignore Canadianess. In fact one Minister said that Canada had no culture and then sought out ways to destroy it.

    Myths of Immigration

    You are confusing an overall culture with facets within that culture, and they might be many. But culture necessarily includes a bond among the people of a nation, multiculturalism does not..
    Bullz. Everyone knows them Québécois aren't real Canadianz.
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    In the example you gave of husbands forcing women into mummy suits, the LIBERAL viewpoint would be to assail it as an abrogation of individual rights. The multiculturalist approach, however, is to look the other way as long as the woman, herself, has accepted the practice of her own degradation due to the ingraned practice thereof as part and parcel of the culture in which she has been indoctrinated.

    Multiculturalism, in this case, is clearly at odds with true liberalism.
    If the woman accepts the idea of wearing the hijab I see no conflict with liberal values. So long as it is her choice then there is nothing wrong with it whatsoever.
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    Re: Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No, it is not working iin Canada, Orion and I'm Canadian also. Unless Canada's policies towards Immigration soon change dramatically, or we fail to stick to the traditional rights we inherited from our forefathers, then we'll have the same problems as Europe. As evidence we can already see curtailments in place regarding free speech, a free press, and assembly.
    We're not losing those rights because of immigration, but for the same reason the U.S. is losing them: statist government and expansion of the powers of the aristocracy. The corporate socialism in Canada is just as bad if not worse than in the United States. Neo-liberal economic philosophy and big business are overriding individual rights, and it is mostly the neo-cons who are at the helm of that. Immigration is actually increasing at the hands of the right wing even though they simultaneously decry it. The only main difference between liberal and conservative philosophy is how the immigrants are treated after they arrive and what sorts of help they get, but honestly the differences are not that large.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Or anyone with functioning powers of observation.
    This is just a trite way of saying you think you're right and I'm wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Democracies have always accepted immigrants but it is part of the immigrants responsibility to adapt somewhat to their host country's culture, traditions and laws. Saying it is all the fault of the hosts is silly. It's wise to follow the "when in Rome" adage or resentments, and worse, tend to follow.
    No, the tradition of democracies has been to exploit immigrants. People often attack the southern U.S. for having had slaves but places like New York were judging the admission of people like the Irish (who were called "white niggers") and the Poles based on their physical ability to do hard labour. For example the Poles were judged on shoulder width and were sent to the mines. (The word slave comes from Slav, the ethnicity.) Many immigrants in NYC lived in conditions worse than slaves in the south, i.e. having no heat in the winter. And this is all the way up to the 1890's, we're not talking proto-America here. I mention NYC because the same sorts of behaviours happened in Canada when places like Toronto were under construction. Our cities were built on immigration.

    People opposed to multicultural policy usually only do so based on racial grounds, even if they don't know it. We bring them into our nations to exploit them as we always have because we need them, but then we simultaneously limit their social mobility because we want them to do the dirty work and we don't want them to have our privilege. Tell me, within Germany, how many first generation Germans are in political office? How many wield any power of any kind? It's no wonder then that they form enclaves and start to hate the status quo.

    If the right wing is trying to seem anti-multicultural now it's only because there are social tensions that they can play off of to get public support; but make no mistake, they fully supported the loosening of immigration policies in order to bring in fresh blood for the lower class work force.

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