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Thread: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesome! View Post
    Why do we have to F/with the military so soon with so many questions and concerns about Gays serving openly in the military? Why not test Gays serving openly on a much smaller scale before we do this across the board, which could have potentially devastating consequences to the military. The current policy is not perfect, but it seems that it's working albeit some outlying gays that are being kicked out of the military when they are found to be gay, but does that mean we just rush in and change/repeal the policy across the board.
    Gays serving openly would not be devastating to the military, as seen by other militaries in the world. Are you saying that there militaries are better able to operate than ours?
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    I suspect there are probably a number of cases in various commands where Gay individuals were given a pass because A) They were Needed B) It was just some Reckless behavior that could have been quietly handled to Everyone's benefit.

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There would need to be some justification for why they should not serve in combat units, not just that you don't want them there. Even the higher ups would need some justification. It is hard enough for them to come up with enough justification to keep women out of combat units, I highly doubt there will be enough to keep gay men out, especially since gay men have the advantage of the fact that they have already been serving in combat units and can show proof that they can do the job just as well as straight men.
    The justification, could be that since there are no openly gay soldiers serving in combat arms units, that there are currently no issues with fraternization; which is the primary reason that females are barred from serving in combat arms units. You do know what the four combat arms are. Yes?

    How much experience do you have in a combat arms unit?



    Why are women given the right to refuse to share quarters with men and vice versa, but they can't refuse to share quarters with someone of a different race or different religious practices? This is the question, not what regulations give them that right. The problem is not just the sexual attractions issue. It is not that black and white. There are many reasons why men and women do not share quarters. The fact is that straight men and gay men share quarters now. Straight women and gay women share quarters now. Do you honestly think that allowing gays to serve openly will somehow open a magical door that will cause gay men to all suddenly feel that they can openly hit on straight men? Or maybe you think that with gays being forced to lie about/hide their sexuality, it keeps straight men safer? This also goes back to the physiological differences between men and women and the cultural differences in how men and women are treated.
    We're talking about sexual issues, not racial issues. What's the fall out going to be when gay soldiers refuse to billet with straight soldiers? I think you're handicapping yourself by looking at this from a single demension.

    By trying to equate gay men to women, you are simply showing your own biases and fears, or possibly your own misunderstanding of the situation. Gay men currently serve with straight men, in the same units and the same living spaces. Women, whether straight or gay do not serve in all of the same units, and certainly don't share living spaces and never have.
    When I say, "gay", I'm referring to gay males and gay females. BTW, do you understand how you contradicted yourself in that paragraph?
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Gays serving openly would not be devastating to the military, as seen by other militaries in the world. Are you saying that there militaries are better able to operate than ours?
    Care to show us an army that is better--technically and tactically--than the United States? I'll save you some time; you can't do it.

    Show us an army that is more technically and tactically proficient than the United States and you'll have an argument. Until then, well...
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Care to show us an army that is better--technically and tactically--than the United States? I'll save you some time; you can't do it.

    Show us an army that is more technically and tactically proficient than the United States and you'll have an argument. Until then, well...
    Gays serving would have zero effect on tactics and technology. Possibly the best service in pure soldier ability is the Israeli army.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Care to show us an army that is better--technically and tactically--than the United States? I'll save you some time; you can't do it.

    Show us an army that is more technically and tactically proficient than the United States and you'll have an argument. Until then, well...
    Awesome! was suggesting that allowing gays to serve openly would be devastating to the American military, I was merely asking if he thought our army would be less capable of doing their job than other militaries if we allowed gays to serve openly.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The justification, could be that since there are no openly gay soldiers serving in combat arms units, that there are currently no issues with fraternization; which is the primary reason that females are barred from serving in combat arms units. You do know what the four combat arms are. Yes?
    How do you know that there are no openly gay men serving in combat units? Do you have connections in every combat unit in the US military? I highly doubt it. There are very likely openly gay men in at least some combat units in the US. I guarantee that there are currently no women in those combat units. And, whether they are openly gay or not, there are still gay men serving in almost all combat units (I won't say absolutely all, because there are most likely not that many gay men in the military, but they are still able to serve in all). What should matter to you is whether or not they can do their job, not who they are attracted to.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How much experience do you have in a combat arms unit?
    Why does it matter? I have enough intelligence to know the difference between a gay man and a woman. And I have known plenty of men who have served in combat units, including my husband. I know that he knew of at least one guy who served with him that was gay. Didn't affect his performance, the performance of the guys with him, nor his unit's operational ability to have a gay man in their unit. And the only difference between an openly gay soldier and a gay soldier that everyone knows is gay, but who he himself hasn't publicly admitted is the lack of concrete evidence.

    I'll keep repeating this as often as you need it, there are already rules in place to deal with any relationships that may occur that could be harmful to good order and discipline, fraternization and sexual harassment along with no sex rules while in combat zones. Considering we have so many people that are worried about the harm that the gay soldiers may cause, I highly doubt that very many of those people would let the gay soldiers slide on any rule breaking if they found out about it, unlike many of those same soldiers who may just let their buddy slide for sleeping with a girl in combat zone bases.



    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    We're talking about sexual issues, not racial issues. What's the fall out going to be when gay soldiers refuse to billet with straight soldiers? I think you're handicapping yourself by looking at this from a single demension.
    What makes you think that gay soldiers would refuse to billet with straight soldiers? They are living with them now. And it isn't the gay soldiers who are even suggesting separate billeting assignments, it is some of the straight soldiers who are wanting/demanding/expecting this. The straight soldiers are the ones who are afraid that the gay soldiers might be checking them out or try to sexually assault them if they live together.

    And we are talking about reasonable arguments for why something would be necessary. Gay rights are walking a very close path to black integration, especially in the military. I guarantee that there were people asking the same question that you are back when they decided to finally integrate the military completely. I bet you that there were some people who asked, "Well what about when blacks/whites refuse to billet with the other?". So the question is, why would it be necessary to separate gay men/women from straight men/women, when they already currently share the same living spaces? What kind of problems exactly, do you see coming from such an arrangement that wouldn't already currently exist? Afterall, they do currently share living spaces. The only rule that would actually be changed is that the gay svc member can't be kicked out for declaring themself as gay, the other rules concerning sexual harassment are still in place.


    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    When I say, "gay", I'm referring to gay males and gay females. BTW, do you understand how you contradicted yourself in that paragraph?
    I understand that I left out "with men" in the last sentence. My bad. That last part should have read "Women, whether straight or gay do not serve in all of the same units, and certainly don't share living spaces with men, and never have."

    However, when you are talking about combat units, you are only referring to gay men in reference to all women, whether gay or straight. Women, of any sexuality, are not allowed in combat units because all women are physically women. Which is also a good point. If the main reason that women weren't allowed in combat units was the potential for unwanted relationships, then wouldn't it be okay for gay women to be in combat units? Afterall, the gay women wouldn't want to sleep with the straight guys, so then the only problems would come from straight guys who were willing to rape those women. And if there are guys who would be willing to rape fellow soldiers, then those are guys who shouldn't be in the military anyways.

    Also, there are very few females that care if they have to share living spaces with women who aren't of the same sexuality as themselves. I shared berthing spaces with at least 3 women who were openly gay and a couple more who were bi, no one in my berthing cared. In fact, when we all were accused of being gay, we considered it hilarious and joked around about it. I'd be willing to bet that most of the complaints about sharing spaces are coming from straight men, not straight women nor gay men or women.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Very True. It is the Straight Men who are concerned and that is part of our Culture which will not change regardless of the Orders of Judge's who are rather detached from Military concepts. One more Clue - Probably 85/90% of the US Armed Forces are Straight Men.

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by Ned Racine View Post
    Very True. It is the Straight Men who are concerned and that is part of our Culture which will not change regardless of the Orders of Judge's who are rather detached from Military concepts. One more Clue - Probably 85/90% of the US Armed Forces are Straight Men.
    First of all, women make up 20% of the US military. Therefore, your numbers are a bit off from the start. Gay men make up, most likely, at least another 1-2% probably a little bit more. That brings us to less than 80% being straight men. Second, not all those straight men have problems with serving alongside openly gay men. Some of them do it already. Others have their own secrets. Some have religious beliefs that accept homosexuality or they have no religious beliefs. Others just don't care whether someone is gay or not, as long as they do their job and aren't bothering them. The biggest issue is really the fear of what may happen. Many of these guys, especially in combat units, have been told that openly gay soldiers in the military will harm their morale and discipline, and they have come to accept it as fact without any evidence. In fact, given evidence that other militaries and even other units within our own military can operate just fine alongside openly gay personnel, they still cling to this belief.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    First of all, women make up 20% of the US military. Therefore, your numbers are a bit off from the start. Gay men make up, most likely, at least another 1-2% probably a little bit more. That brings us to less than 80% being straight men. Second, not all those straight men have problems with serving alongside openly gay men. Some of them do it already. Others have their own secrets. Some have religious beliefs that accept homosexuality or they have no religious beliefs. Others just don't care whether someone is gay or not, as long as they do their job and aren't bothering them. The biggest issue is really the fear of what may happen. Many of these guys, especially in combat units, have been told that openly gay soldiers in the military will harm their morale and discipline, and they have come to accept it as fact without any evidence. In fact, given evidence that other militaries and even other units within our own military can operate just fine alongside openly gay personnel, they still cling to this belief.


    I don't know about that 20% figure bUT if YOU are correct then We are worse off than most realize. Let me clue you into something here. Post 9/11 We needed an expansion of Men in uniform. Let me restate that .........MEN.......... Instead we called up Reservists and NG's including guys in their 50's just so GWB was not further jeopardized concerning 2004. I Voted for him , but I admit it BECAUSE it's obvious..

    Social Security used to be the 3rd Rail of US Politics but has been overtaken by the subject of Conscription. It's poison and is reeking of Hypocrisy from both sides of the spectrum. Too Many are just Too comfortable and that possibly is WHY We are headed South as a Nation.

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