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Thread: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

  1. #141
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The reason for resticting gays from combat arms MOS's is the same reason that females are restricted from combat arms MOS's: too much potential for a breakdown in discipline. It's more to do with discipline and unit cohesion than on a woman's ability to be an infantry soldier.
    Prove this.

    There are men and women that serve together in other units where they don't have issues with discipline and unit cohesion. These have become excuses and fall backs for keeping gays out of the military and off the battlefield. If you believe this, then show proof. Don't just state that it is fact without something to back it up. And you need to include how women and gay men would cause the same discipline and unit cohesion problems if you are saying that they should be treated the same as far as keeping them out of certain MOSs. As I have stated, there are plenty of reasons to keep women out of combat, and I'm sure that I can find some studies to back this up. Gay men already serve in combat units.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Well, it will become a neccessity, when straight soldiers refuse to billet with gay soldiers and gay soldiers refuse to billet with straight soldiers. The living quarters situation is going to cause more hassle that, in my opinion, it's worth.
    Prove this also.

    I highly doubt that very many soldiers will refuse to billet with other soldiers due to their sexuality. A few may have problems with it. The thing is, they are doing it now. Also, if someone is refusing to share quarters with someone, isn't that their issue? Aren't there ways to deal with these things already? I'm sure there are some racist guys out there who don't want to share quarters with guys of a different race, but they still have to. Why should this be different?
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Prove this.

    There are men and women that serve together in other units where they don't have issues with discipline and unit cohesion. These have become excuses and fall backs for keeping gays out of the military and off the battlefield. If you believe this, then show proof. Don't just state that it is fact without something to back it up. And you need to include how women and gay men would cause the same discipline and unit cohesion problems if you are saying that they should be treated the same as far as keeping them out of certain MOSs. As I have stated, there are plenty of reasons to keep women out of combat, and I'm sure that I can find some studies to back this up. Gay men already serve in combat units.



    Prove this also.

    I highly doubt that very many soldiers will refuse to billet with other soldiers due to their sexuality. A few may have problems with it. The thing is, they are doing it now. Also, if someone is refusing to share quarters with someone, isn't that their issue? Aren't there ways to deal with these things already? I'm sure there are some racist guys out there who don't want to share quarters with guys of a different race, but they still have to. Why should this be different?
    apdst's argument is logical, but there is no data yet. We'll see what happens in the coming years, but from a purely analytical perspective I would have to agree with apdst.

    Also, WTF would anyone want to join the military? There goes my excuse if there is ever a draft, guess I'll have to work on the "back problems" excuse ....

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by SingleCellOrganism View Post
    apdst's argument is logical, but there is no data yet. We'll see what happens in the coming years, but from a purely analytical perspective I would have to agree with apdst.

    Also, WTF would anyone want to join the military? There goes my excuse if there is ever a draft, guess I'll have to work on the "back problems" excuse ....
    No offense, as I like the tone of your post a lot. But I don't think his arguemnt is that logical. I'm not sure females have been proven to be responsible for any break down in discipline and think that they're being limited has more to do with our cultural position than anything factual. And gays are not at all female. There is no reason to think gays and striaghts will be willingly having sex and do anything other than their jobs. As they have been living together all this time, nothing would really change at all.

    Again, I mean no offense and to appreaciate a reasonable tone.

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    The Federal Appeals court has allowed the military to practice DADT for now (not a final ruling)

    Federal Appeals Court Allows Military to Keep Ban on Gays for Now - FoxNews.com
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by SingleCellOrganism View Post
    apdst's argument is logical, but there is no data yet. We'll see what happens in the coming years, but from a purely analytical perspective I would have to agree with apdst.

    Also, WTF would anyone want to join the military? There goes my excuse if there is ever a draft, guess I'll have to work on the "back problems" excuse ....
    It's not logical though, since gay men currently serve in every unit that has straight men. You would need data that showed that the reasons that most gay men got discharged was because they couldn't actually do the job and/or that their relationships were causing a problem with discipline/morale, not just because they were gay. Because a gay man is not physically the same as a woman, gay or straight. A gay man is physically a man. The only difference between a gay man and a straight man is who they are attracted to.

    And I want some specific examples of how either discipline or morale are negatively affected by having women or gay men in a unit, if you guys are so sure that it happens. Especially in reference to gay men. Saying that there will be inappropriate relationships or unwanted sexual advances is not good enough, since there are already other rules in place to deal with these. And if it is just because some people may be uncomfortable or feel like someone is checking them out, then that is his problem. The person who is uncomfortable needs to have enough discipline to be more tolerant and do his job.

    Also, there are many reasons why people would join the military. And I bet there are many reasons why people wouldn't join the military. I highly doubt that one of the main reasons for anyone feeling either way is that they won't/would have to work with/share living spaces with gays. If someone is that uncomfortable with homosexuality, I doubt they would join the military now and I know that I wouldn't want them in. It's not like you are required to be friends with every person in your unit, you are just required to have enough respect for them to work with them. If they aren't doing there job for whatever reason, no matter what their sexuality or even their gender is, then they should have to answer to that, not special rules that only apply to them.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Prove this.

    There are men and women that serve together in other units where they don't have issues with discipline and unit cohesion. These have become excuses and fall backs for keeping gays out of the military and off the battlefield. If you believe this, then show proof. Don't just state that it is fact without something to back it up. And you need to include how women and gay men would cause the same discipline and unit cohesion problems if you are saying that they should be treated the same as far as keeping them out of certain MOSs. As I have stated, there are plenty of reasons to keep women out of combat, and I'm sure that I can find some studies to back this up. Gay men already serve in combat units.
    Females are barred from serving in combat arms units. IMO, Gay males will be prohibited from serving in combat arms units, as well.





    Prove this also.

    I highly doubt that very many soldiers will refuse to billet with other soldiers due to their sexuality. A few may have problems with it. The thing is, they are doing it now. Also, if someone is refusing to share quarters with someone, isn't that their issue? Aren't there ways to deal with these things already? I'm sure there are some racist guys out there who don't want to share quarters with guys of a different race, but they still have to. Why should this be different?
    IOW, with DoD regulations, females cannot be forced to billet with male soldiers. Why? Because they have that right. If gay soldiers are allowed to serve in the military, soldiers--regardless of sexual persuasion, or gender--will also have that right.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Females are barred from serving in combat arms units. IMO, Gay males will be prohibited from serving in combat arms units, as well.
    There would need to be some justification for why they should not serve in combat units, not just that you don't want them there. Even the higher ups would need some justification. It is hard enough for them to come up with enough justification to keep women out of combat units, I highly doubt there will be enough to keep gay men out, especially since gay men have the advantage of the fact that they have already been serving in combat units and can show proof that they can do the job just as well as straight men.


    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    IOW, with DoD regulations, females cannot be forced to billet with male soldiers. Why? Because they have that right. If gay soldiers are allowed to serve in the military, soldiers--regardless of sexual persuasion, or gender--will also have that right.
    Why are women given the right to refuse to share quarters with men and vice versa, but they can't refuse to share quarters with someone of a different race or different religious practices? This is the question, not what regulations give them that right. The problem is not just the sexual attractions issue. It is not that black and white. There are many reasons why men and women do not share quarters. The fact is that straight men and gay men share quarters now. Straight women and gay women share quarters now. Do you honestly think that allowing gays to serve openly will somehow open a magical door that will cause gay men to all suddenly feel that they can openly hit on straight men? Or maybe you think that with gays being forced to lie about/hide their sexuality, it keeps straight men safer? This also goes back to the physiological differences between men and women and the cultural differences in how men and women are treated.

    By trying to equate gay men to women, you are simply showing your own biases and fears, or possibly your own misunderstanding of the situation. Gay men currently serve with straight men, in the same units and the same living spaces. Women, whether straight or gay do not serve in all of the same units, and certainly don't share living spaces and never have.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I'm betting that if gays are allowed to serve openly, that there will be MOS restictions placed on them, just like the no combat arms restrictions that have been placed on female soldiers.

    The Commandant of The Marine Corps has already suggested the need for seperate billets for gay and straight personel.
    I predicted this in the big blowup thread about women on Navy subs that Navy Pride started.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Why do we have to F/with the military so soon with so many questions and concerns about Gays serving openly in the military? Why not test Gays serving openly on a much smaller scale before we do this across the board, which could have potentially devastating consequences to the military. The current policy is not perfect, but it seems that it's working albeit some outlying gays that are being kicked out of the military when they are found to be gay, but does that mean we just rush in and change/repeal the policy across the board.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesome! View Post
    Why do we have to F/with the military so soon with so many questions and concerns about Gays serving openly in the military? Why not test Gays serving openly on a much smaller scale before we do this across the board, which could have potentially devastating consequences to the military. The current policy is not perfect, but it seems that it's working albeit some outlying gays that are being kicked out of the military when they are found to be gay, but does that mean we just rush in and change/repeal the policy across the board.
    DADT was supposed to be the trial period. The only thing it showed was that there are a lot of people willing to put gays out for simply admitting that they are gay, whether they are actually doing any harm to order or discipline or not. In fact, it also showed that there are a lot of people willing to sign paperwork saying they are gay to get out of the military.

    And if you truly want a information from a "trial unit" just talk to many of the personnel who have worked with openly gay personnel within their own units/divisions/departments, such as myself, we can tell you that there was no problem from those that are openly gay. In fact, in my particular case, even my own chain of command fought to keep a couple of personnel from being put out under DADT, despite their personal misconduct being the reason that they were "found out". There are many undermanned jobs throughout the service where they could care less what sexuality a person is, as long as they do their job. Having more liberty for everyone is way more important than worrying about if someone is checking you out in the shower.
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