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Thread: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by Obamanator View Post
    Speaking of showering in the military...Gay guys/gals can shower together... why can't straight guys/gals shower together?? It seems like discrimination and unfair to allow gays to check out each others "complete package" in a semi-public forum and not let straights do the same. Forget the gender part... It's a double standard and sexual discrimination against straights. Why can't the military simply have unisex showers, foxholes, barracks... etc. makes sense to me... I'm a gonna rite my congressman.
    I've been saying that for years. If you want "equality" then by god let it be equal.

    try being in the field for two weeks with two shower trailers and 100 guys having to share one and 5 females getting the other all to themselves.

    try living for months in a tent with the guys crammed in 8 per tent and the females living 2 per tent.

    in order to pass my PT test, I have to do more pushups and run faster than a female that is half my age.

    and then there are females who still bitch about not getting treated "fairly". they'd **** themselves if they actually got treated "fairly"
    Last edited by OscarB63; 10-13-10 at 04:17 PM.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I've been saying that for years. If you want "equality" then by god let it be equal.

    try being in the field for two weeks with two shower trailers and 100 guys having to share one and 5 females getting the other all to themselves.

    try living for months in a tent with the guys crammed in 8 per tent and the females living 2 per tent.

    in order to pass my PT test, I have to do more pushups and run faster than a female that is half my age.

    and then there are females who still bitch about not getting treated "fairly". they'd **** themselves if they actually got treated "fairly"
    OMG, how many times does it take to explain that PFTs are based on a measure of overall fitness, not what is the minimum needed of each exercise for someone to do the job. There are basic physiological differences between men and women, including balance, strength, hormone levels that affect muscle growth, fat and muscle distribution, and center of gravity. All these things affect the effort it takes men and women to do certain excercises. It is much harder for a woman to do a full pushup than it is for a man at the same level of physical fitness because a woman has a different center of gravity than a man does. This is a major reason why during those fitness tests while in school, girls did pushups on their knees and boys did full pushups. Did you know that a woman's waist is above her bellybutton, while a man's waist is below? And did you ever wonder if those breasts that many women have wouldn't act as sort of counterweights in the effort of trying to do a pushup? It's not about lowering standards, it is about recognizing that men and women are not built the same.

    Honestly, I wouldn't care one bit if men and women share living/showering spaces, but I do understand why this isn't done. I have shared a changing space with guys while I was active duty (our chief said it was okay as long as no one had problems with it). The majority of men and women in the military, and at a lesser degree, spouses, are not completely comfortable with sharing those spaces, mainly because it is not normal in our society to do so. It is quite common to see male and female bathrooms in the civilian world, not as normal to see gay and straight bathrooms. It is quite normal to see girls and boys separated in gym changing rooms/showers, not normal to see gays and straights separated. And, it really isn't just the "sexual attraction" part that makes it less comfortable, many men have no desire to hear about women's periods or much else that women might talk about while in groups of just women and vice versa. If it were more acceptable in society as a whole, then eventually men and women could share berthings and/or heads/showers, but it most likely won't happen for a long time, if ever, in the US military.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by Obamanator View Post
    Speaking of showering in the military...Gay guys/gals can shower together... why can't straight guys/gals shower together?? It seems like discrimination and unfair to allow gays to check out each others "complete package" in a semi-public forum and not let straights do the same. Forget the gender part... It's a double standard and sexual discrimination against straights. Why can't the military simply have unisex showers, foxholes, barracks... etc. makes sense to me... I'm a gonna rite my congressman.
    Starship Troopers was the utopian future we've been waiting for!

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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    OMG, how many times does it take to explain that PFTs are based on a measure of overall fitness, not what is the minimum needed of each exercise for someone to do the job. There are basic physiological differences between men and women, including balance, strength, hormone levels that affect muscle growth, fat and muscle distribution, and center of gravity. All these things affect the effort it takes men and women to do certain excercises. It is much harder for a woman to do a full pushup than it is for a man at the same level of physical fitness because a woman has a different center of gravity than a man does. This is a major reason why during those fitness tests while in school, girls did pushups on their knees and boys did full pushups. Did you know that a woman's waist is above her bellybutton, while a man's waist is below? And did you ever wonder if those breasts that many women have wouldn't act as sort of counterweights in the effort of trying to do a pushup? It's not about lowering standards, it is about recognizing that men and women are not built the same.
    yeah, I 've heard all that before...it still doesn't make sense that a 47 y/o, 200 lb man has to do more pushups and run faster than a 120 lb 20 y/o female.

    it's the age thing. I concede the validity in your arguement if you were comparing men and women of the same general age. but when you compare a 40+ guy to a 20s girl, that arguement just doesn't hold water.

    Honestly, I wouldn't care one bit if men and women share living/showering spaces, but I do understand why this isn't done. I have shared a changing space with guys while I was active duty (our chief said it was okay as long as no one had problems with it). The majority of men and women in the military, and at a lesser degree, spouses, are not completely comfortable with sharing those spaces, mainly because it is not normal in our society to do so. It is quite common to see male and female bathrooms in the civilian world, not as normal to see gay and straight bathrooms. It is quite normal to see girls and boys separated in gym changing rooms/showers, not normal to see gays and straights separated. And, it really isn't just the "sexual attraction" part that makes it less comfortable, many men have no desire to hear about women's periods or much else that women might talk about while in groups of just women and vice versa. If it were more acceptable in society as a whole, then eventually men and women could share berthings and/or heads/showers, but it most likely won't happen for a long time, if ever, in the US military.
    /rant on

    this last deployment we had ~80 male officers and senior NCOs in our living area we had to share one shower trailer with 5 showers and one latrine trailer with 6 stalls. there were 6 female officers and senior NCOs that shared the other set of trailers. and they were constantly bitching about the conditions in the trailers. really? they could've almost each had a designated shower for themselves that no one else used and they could have had a designated toilet each.

    women get promoted faster, females don't get put on near as many of the "**** details" as the guys do. there are all kinds of deferrences made towards females because they are females, which they gladly take advantage of...but the first time something doesn't go their way...it's because SGT whoever is a sexist.

    bah.. /rant off
    Last edited by OscarB63; 10-13-10 at 05:56 PM.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    yeah, I 've heard all that before...it still doesn't make sense that a 47 y/o, 200 lb man has to do more pushups and run faster than a 120 lb 20 y/o female.
    Nope, it sure doesn't. And that's something I went round and round with them about in ROTC. They were essentially setting us up for failure. When our men in uniform complained that the enlisted women couldn't "carry their weight", they had a legit reason for complaint: Because the ****ing powers that be dumbed down the training and allowed women in to do the same jobs as men but without the same level of physical ability. It endangers the women, and it endangers everyone who has to work with them. There should NOT be two different sets of tests. If I am expected to do the same job as someone else, then we both should have passed the SAME training and fitness tests. Handicapping the women only handicaps the unit they're assigned to.

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And did you ever wonder if those breasts that many women have wouldn't act as sort of counterweights in the effort of trying to do a pushup? It's not about lowering standards, it is about recognizing that men and women are not built the same.
    And FWIW...if that were a legitimate arguement they would have different standards for females based on cup size. last time I checked SPC Daisy Duke with her DDs had to do the same number of pushups as PFC Plain Jane with her AAs.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    There should NOT be two different sets of tests. If I am expected to do the same job as someone else, then we both should have passed the SAME training and fitness tests. Handicapping the women only handicaps the unit they're assigned to.
    correct and if they are going to insist on two different sets of standards, then the feminists have no room to complain when the military makes decisions that there are certain fields in which females can't serve.

    if it is logical to have different standards because men and women are built differently, then it is logical to have job restrictions because men and women are built differently.
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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    correct and if they are going to insist on two different sets of standards, then the feminists have no room to complain when the military makes decisions that there are certain fields in which females can't serve.

    if it is logical to have different standards because men and women are built differently, then it is logical to have job restrictions because men and women are built differently.
    Precisely.

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You seem confused. Freedom of speak is not freedom from responsibility for that speech. Further, the odds of getting locked up for cussing out any officer are about nil. There are limitations to your freedom of speech as well.

    By the way, I and many others who advocate for the repeal of DADT have in fact served. In fact, we have at least one active duty person here who advocates for it's repeal.


    Why not just go with the scenario I outlined. Tell me the individual does not either get locked up or put under almost immediate restriction.

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    Re: Judge orders military to stop enforcing don't ask, don't tell

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    correct and if they are going to insist on two different sets of standards, then the feminists have no room to complain when the military makes decisions that there are certain fields in which females can't serve.

    if it is logical to have different standards because men and women are built differently, then it is logical to have job restrictions because men and women are built differently.
    I actually have little problem with job restrictions based on physical abilities. If a woman can't physically do the job, then she shouldn't be in the job. I am not one to claim that women should be allowed to be in combat positions if they can't actually physically do what is required to be in that position. In fact there are plenty of other good reasons to keep women from combat positions right now anyway.

    I'm not a feminist, I'm a realist. I find out why things are the way they are. It may be time to reevaluate fitness standards, but they should never be the same between men and women for each exercise (except maybe the sit n reach, don't know if Army has that, but it is sort of lame, I've never seen/heard of a person failing it). In fact, from what I have seen, it may even be a good idea to raise the required number for women's situps and/or lower the required number for men, but I am no expert. I am simply going off of the fact that it seems that women find situps, in general, easier than men.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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