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Thread: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

  1. #41
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    A better example would have been Ghandi - however Mandela did renouce violence while in prison and his goals were eventually acheived peacefully and through negotiation.
    He didn't do so while in prison and I'm not sure he ever did. He certainly advocated violent struggle if necessary after release. A more contemporaneous article.

    Why Won't Mandela Renounce Violence? - Op-Ed - NYTimes.com

    All Nobel winners are worthy of criticism I'm afraid.

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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    The West didn't have a history of democracy either, until it decided to be democratic. I am not saying that China should take on Western-style systems, but let's face the facts: China is part of a globalized world. It is completely interfacing with western nations economically. It is inviting scores of foreigners to come to its doorstep to teach their people English; it wants foreign business, and thus it caves to foreign customs. The young people there are increasingly curious about the outside. Does modernization have to equal westernization? The jury is still out on that one. I don't think though that just because China would seek a democratic system that it is caving to foreign culture. Democracy is just a way of doing things. The west didn't invent it, it just popularized it.

    You also forget (or maybe you didn't know) that during the KMT era, elections were held. It was mostly for the rich to vote in China, and men, but that kind of proto-democracy was the way we originally did it before the system evolved.

    I frankly don't get what your beef is. You seem to just be arguing for the sake of arguing, and making up points that I never even said.
    You only say that because you disagree with me. I am arguing this point because of people like you putting forward these absurd and irresponsible notions about China. Advocating violent revolution in China today is just reprehensible. Treating China like it is no different from the Soviet Union or Cuba is detrimental to progress rather than beneficial to it.

    As far as what system, I am not entirely certain of your talk that they don't have to adopt a Western system. Ludahai apparently thinks a few surface changes is all it takes to say a state isn't adopting the Western system. Do you agree with what he said?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Who said that a democratic China has to have a Western system of government? Taiwan has a working democratic system that borrows some elements from the west but also retains distinct Chinese characteristics. That makes Taiwan different from China and that it is democratic and respects the rights of citizens (and non-citizen residents) of the country but also different from Western democracies in that its processess have distinctive eastern character -- including the presence of FIVE branches of government rather than the more common three. Japan, South Korea and Mongolia are all states in this part of the world with functioning democracies. All of them take elements from Western systems -- the parts that they can benefit from -- along with retaining some ideas and customs of their own. That can work in China, given the chance. China's government is authoritarian and it's citizens are denies basic human rights that those of us living in civilized states (like the US, Canada, Taiwan and many others) take for granted.
    You really do not get it. The differences between the systems in Taiwan or Japan and the system in the United States are about as significant as the differences between the system in the United States and the systems in France or Germany. A system is rarely identical to another, but if you think there is any significant difference between these systems than you are either fooling yourself or not very informed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Yeah, you're right there, he hasn't advocated violence to achieve his goals like Mandela.
    Congratulations. Your opinion on this is now completely meaningless to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    A better example would have been Ghandi - however Mandela did renouce violence while in prison and his goals were eventually acheived peacefully and through negotiation.
    Of course, Ghandi never got a Nobel Peace Prize.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Congratulations. Your opinion on this is now completely meaningless to me.
    Bizarrely, it's you who has offered nothing meaningful to this discussion. You've made a non too subtle play of the race card. You can't name a Chinese dissident who isn't in jail. If Hu got the prize you would be making the same arguments you are now and that's the only person you could name. Are you incorrectly claiming that Mandela didn't advocate violence or are you saying Liu does advocate violence, presumably using the same Sinophile sources that told you that past winners hadn't been under arrest and were unable to collect the prize? Maybe you were just making **** up and hoping to get away with it. Or are you hiding under your slippery slope, consequentialist nonsense when applying conditions to how the PRC should act when you would never make such a defence of a Western nation (check out how often you use the word "ultimately" in post 21 to justify China's preemptive removal of an individuals rights).
    Last edited by Ben K.; 10-12-10 at 04:22 PM.

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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    'Chinese' is not a language

    So you speak Chinese huh. One Chinese, Two Chinese, Three Chinese, Four Chinese.
    That's really nitpicky dude, even for you. In Mandarin you can ask someone if they speak Chinese 中文 as a blanket term, and then you can specify: 普通话 (Mandarin), 粤语 (Cantonese), etc. "Chinese" is just an umbrella term to ask if you speak one of the languages of their land, since there are many.

    So yeah... you can ask someone if they speak Chinese, and it makes perfect sense. You just have to clarify later which language in the Chinese family you speak.

  5. #45
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    You've made a non too subtle play of the race card.
    That is because the dynamic isn't all that subtle.

    You can't name a Chinese dissident who isn't in jail.
    That is just absurd. I said I do not have names that I can pull off the top of my head and the implication from you that every Chinese dissident is in jail just proves how little you know about China.

    Are you incorrectly claiming that Mandela didn't advocate violence or are you saying Liu does advocate violence, presumably using the same Sinophile sources that told you that past winners hadn't been under arrest and were unable to collect the prize?
    None of the past winners were in prison and that is just the truth. The reason your opinion is illegitimate is that you seem to think Mandela orchestrating a campaign of sabotage operations that rarely resulted in harm to any human being somehow is enough to negate his many successes to the point where awarding the prize to Liu Xiabo, who has at best achieved nothing and at worst harmed the cause, actually becomes anything more than a political maneuver.

    Or are you hiding under your slippery slope, consequentialist nonsense when applying conditions to how the PRC should act when you would never make such a defence of a Western nation (check out how often you use the word "ultimately" in post 21 to justify China's preemptive removal of an individuals rights).
    I was not justifying anything. Rather some people have the mistaken notion that it was all about preventing people form dissenting or disagreeing, but it is not that simple. This whole event serves as nothing more than a spectacle meant to incite some action.
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    'Chinese' is not a language



    So you speak Chinese huh. One Chinese, Two Chinese, Three Chinese, Four Chinese.
    Of course, any reasonably intelligent person knows that if one refers to speaking Chinese, he/she is referring to Mandarin Chinese. This is a common convention in both Chinese and in English, along with other languages (including French, Bahasa Indonesia, Japanese and even Taiwanese and Hakka).

    Oh but you are not. We know. You thought the Nobel Peace Prize and the committee which awarded was and I quote 'nutty' when they gave it to Obama, Gore but not when they gave it to somebody who supports your anti-China propaganda. But you go on speaking your 'Chinese' Taipei Man.
    It was a nutty decision. BTW, I don't live in Taipei. Now, do you actually have anything CONSTRUCTIVE to add to the conversation?!?!?
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    You really do not get it. The differences between the systems in Taiwan or Japan and the system in the United States are about as significant as the differences between the system in the United States and the systems in France or Germany. A system is rarely identical to another, but if you think there is any significant difference between these systems than you are either fooling yourself or not very informed.
    Sorry, but I am very well informed of these matters. It is you, who doesn't even speak Mandarin or read Chinese, who is ill-informed. The workings of the systems in Japan and Taiwan while ON THE SURFACE appear to have a lot in common with the West, in reality, they are not. Taiwan's system evolved here. Japan's system, while imposed on it by the victorious Americans, operates in a manner that is very Japanese. For you to be ignorant of this shows that it is you who is clearly misinformed. What do YOU propose for China? The group of thugs who control that country now has no moral right to behave in the way in which they do.
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    That is because the dynamic isn't all that subtle.
    I'm at a loss. There's no race at issue in adopting a form of governance. Culture, yes, but biological determinance is not anything that was brought up in any shape or form but by yourself.

    That is just absurd. I said I do not have names that I can pull off the top of my head and the implication from you that every Chinese dissident is in jail just proves how little you know about China.
    You're on the internet. There's no such thing as "at the top of your head". There's no implication being made about China, just about you and getting a handle of what you consider a legitimate dissident to award.

    None of the past winners were in prison and that is just the truth. The reason your opinion is illegitimate is that you seem to think Mandela orchestrating a campaign of sabotage operations that rarely resulted in harm to any human being somehow is enough to negate his many successes to the point where awarding the prize to Liu Xiabo, who has at best achieved nothing and at worst harmed the cause, actually becomes anything more than a political maneuver.
    He advocated violence against the state (and spent extra time in jail for political purposes by not disavowing violence), nor am I negating anything he achieved, he deserves what he gets but perhaps not to the level of beatification that he has received. Mandela made a political manouver, Lutuli got an award in what could be considered a political manouver by the Committee against the South African state (and he is more admirable than Mandela if you ask me). Liu has achieved nothing like Mandela, but he is better in that he didn't advocate violence and much the same in that he provided no original ideas. Perhaps you should criticise Mandela for advocating "white" style governance for a "black" nation while you're at it.

    I was not justifying anything. Rather some people have the mistaken notion that it was all about preventing people form dissenting or disagreeing, but it is not that simple. This whole event serves as nothing more than a spectacle meant to incite some action.
    As many Nobel Peace Prizes were meant to. It in no way justifies any consequentialist judgment waged upon Liu's wife now or on Liu in the past. This is not anything you would explain away in another national circumstance.

  9. #49
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    That's really nitpicky dude, even for you. In Mandarin you can ask someone if they speak Chinese 中文 as a blanket term, and then you can specify: 普通话 (Mandarin), 粤语 (Cantonese), etc. "Chinese" is just an umbrella term to ask if you speak one of the languages of their land, since there are many.

    So yeah... you can ask someone if they speak Chinese, and it makes perfect sense. You just have to clarify later which language in the Chinese family you speak.
    Notice every time Hatuey gets busted on this nonsense, he bails...
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  10. #50
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    link



    I kind of felt like this was going to happen after China made its protest against this. There is nothing the Nobel committee likes less than to be threatened by a bully, which is exactly what China is... I wonder what they are going to do to Norway, withhold exports of plastic junk?!?!? lol...

    Seriously, I heard this listening to the news on the car radio on the way home and I clapped my hands with excitement (I know, not recommended on the Freeway at 95 km/hr) but I really was happy with this choice... much better than last year's no doubt.

    China has gotten a lot of bad press lately and it is about time. It's childish reaction to this, the row it created with Japan and the increasingly tense trade rows with the EU and the US, among other things, are starting to cause more and more people to wake up to the true nature that is China's government.
    I applaud this win, however so many have made this prize worthless with meager political wins.
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