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Thread: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post

    Liu Xiabo is not Nelson Mandela. Sure not everyone can be, but it is not like this was as close as they could get.
    Yeah, you're right there, he hasn't advocated violence to achieve his goals like Mandela. I thought that is something you'd rather avoid?

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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Yeah, you're right there, he hasn't advocated violence to achieve his goals like Mandela. I thought that is something you'd rather avoid?
    A better example would have been Ghandi - however Mandela did renouce violence while in prison and his goals were eventually acheived peacefully and through negotiation.

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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    This seems to be the usual response, but I think your response only goes to prove my point. I say China should not adopt the West's system (i.e. the system white people made) and you immediately assume I am saying China should not have democracy and human rights. What is implied by your comment is that human rights, openness, and democracy are white European concepts with no basis in Chinese culture. This is in fact the same drivel we find in the Charter '08 Xiabo was involved in drafting and the alleged reason he was imprisoned. You call what I said racist, but your comments are reminiscent of the ideas espoused by someone else I have talked about this with who blatantly said that it was Europeans (white people) who invented the idea of freedom.
    Who said that a democratic China has to have a Western system of government? Taiwan has a working democratic system that borrows some elements from the west but also retains distinct Chinese characteristics. That makes Taiwan different from China and that it is democratic and respects the rights of citizens (and non-citizen residents) of the country but also different from Western democracies in that its processess have distinctive eastern character -- including the presence of FIVE branches of government rather than the more common three. Japan, South Korea and Mongolia are all states in this part of the world with functioning democracies. All of them take elements from Western systems -- the parts that they can benefit from -- along with retaining some ideas and customs of their own. That can work in China, given the chance. China's government is authoritarian and it's citizens are denies basic human rights that those of us living in civilized states (like the US, Canada, Taiwan and many others) take for granted.
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Gosh what a great thing to give the prize to someone whose life will only get worse, at least in the short term.

    It was really a stupid thing to do to, not for someone you are supposed to respect?

    I would expect nothing better from the truly mentally challenged morons who gave the prize last year to someone for being the totally incompetent greatest appeaser since Neville Chamberlain, and we know how great Neville's efforts ended.

    This is sad really.

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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    My rediculous bias against anything Chinese?!!? That is why I speak nearly fluent Chinese as a fourth language AND married an ethnic-Chinese wife... yeah, biased against the Chinese...
    'Chinese' is not a language

    Chinese is not a language. Although treated as a language for political reasons by the governments in Beijing and Taipei eager to unify a culturally diverse country, or as something less than a language by governments in Hong Kong and parts of Southeast Asia, it is in fact a language group (yuzu), one of four such groups in the Sino-Tibetan language family (Mair 1991). Within this group of languages, most experts (Yuan 1960, Zhan 1981, DeFrancis 1984, Ramsey 1987, Norman 1988) recognize 7 or 8 mutually unintelligible varieties which in any other context would be considered languages in their own right. They include: (1) Mandarin, spoken in northern China, where the capital at Beijing is located, and western China; (2) Wu used by some 80 million speakers in the eastern part of China focusing on Shanghai; (3) Northern and Southern Min used on Taiwan, in China's Fujian Province, and in parts of Southeast Asia; and (4) Yue, often called Cantonese, used in China's south. There are also at least three "transitional" varieties (Gan, Xiang, and Hakka) spoken mainly in China's interior.
    So you speak Chinese huh. One Chinese, Two Chinese, Three Chinese, Four Chinese.

    You know, most people on these boards are mature enough to understand that sometimes people do things that they don't agree with but other times they do. I am not one of those who knee-jerk opposes the position of a person or a group because they are on one side of the political divide or the other -- unlike a couple of radical knee-jerk types I know on these boards...
    Oh but you are not. We know. You thought the Nobel Peace Prize and the committee which awarded was and I quote 'nutty' when they gave it to Obama, Gore but not when they gave it to somebody who supports your anti-China propaganda. But you go on speaking your 'Chinese' Taipei Man.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 10-12-10 at 09:51 AM.
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    (heck, Obama won one and the only thing he did was have a D next to his name and be the president).
    It was a little more significant than that. Under Bush, the rest of the free world had (quite appropriately) come to view the United States as an authoritarian rogue state, and people both here and abroad were apprehensive of whether it was even institutionally possible anymore to dislodge Republicans from power. There was also the minor fact that Obama is black, which believe it or not gave about a billion people around the world a sudden sense that their options are broader than they thought. Obama deserved the Nobel Prize for all of his accomplishments put together, which have brought more positive change to the world than anyone since Nelson Mandela. Liu, while having shown tremendous personal courage and made terrible sacrifices for his people's freedom, has not been anywhere near as influential - though I say the Nobel is still well-deserved.
    Last edited by Troubadour; 10-12-10 at 10:07 AM.

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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    It was a little more significant than that. Under Bush, the rest of the free world had (quite appropriately) come to view the United States as an authoritarian rogue state, and people both here and abroad were apprehensive of whether it was even institutionally possible anymore to dislodge Republicans from power. There was also the minor fact that Obama is black, which believe it or not gave about a billion people around the world a sudden sense that their options are broader than they thought. Obama deserved the Nobel Prize for all of his accomplishments put together, which have brought more positive change to the world than anyone since Nelson Mandela. Liu, while having shown tremendous personal courage and made terrible sacrifices for his people's freedom, has not been anywhere near as influential - though I say the Nobel is still well-deserved.
    The rest of the free world also relies on America to defend them. Obama did nothing to merit the Peace Prize. It should be awarded by action, not by skin color or party affiliation. It was given out based off of the fact that Obama wasn't Bush by a bunch of liberal committee members. I've probably done more for peace and good in the world than Obama, so has Bush.
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The rest of the free world also relies on America to defend them.
    Hence the global anxiety when our government fell under the control of irrational aggressors.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Obama did nothing to merit the Peace Prize.
    This is not a thread about Obama's Nobel, but just off the top of my head: Defeated a Republican Party that had nearly melded itself with the state; defeated a Republican candidate who had all but promised to start a war with Iran; pursued diplomatic engagement with the Muslim world, including Iran; kept to Iraq withdrawal timelines; demolished global assumptions about race and the prospects of minorities; and has actively pursued nuclear disarmament. I would say that merits the Prize more than most of the people who've ever received it, but you're welcome to your own standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    It was given out based off of the fact that Obama wasn't Bush by a bunch of liberal committee members.
    And I'm sure the Chinese government is being similarly dismissive of Liu's award. You and they can both insist the award is political, but it remains obvious who is standing up for what's right and who isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I've probably done more for peace and good in the world than Obama
    Then your efforts have been sadly underappreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    so has Bush.
    Only if war were peace and evil good, but this is not Oceania - Fox News notwithstanding.

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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Hence the global anxiety when our government fell under the control of irrational aggressors.
    Our government incorrectly responded to irrational aggressors (Al Quaida). However, when we started the war on terror most of the world was in support of us and recognized the threat. The wars could have gone better, but America was not an irrational aggressor.
    This is not a thread about Obama's Nobel, but just off the top of my head: Defeated a Republican Party that had nearly melded itself with the state; defeated a Republican candidate who had all but promised to start a war with Iran; pursued diplomatic engagement with the Muslim world, including Iran; kept to Iraq withdrawal timelines; demolished global assumptions about race and the prospects of minorities; and has actively pursued nuclear disarmament. I would say that merits the Prize more than most of the people who've ever received it, but you're welcome to your own standards.
    Obama made a lot of promises but didn't do any of that. Actions speak louder than words, and their vision of "peace" is not what I see as true peace. As it seems, we can't diplomatically reason with an irrational aggressor like Iran. Withdrawal timelines are one of the most foolish things any nation can do during a war as well. Obama is seen as a peace maker because the European left agrees with his illogical concept of peace and achievement foreign policies. Obama's actions do not merit the Nobel Peace Prize. It was all for a political statement by partisan liberal Europeans.
    And I'm sure the Chinese government is being similarly dismissive of Liu's award. You and they can both insist the award is political, but it remains obvious who is standing up for what's right and who isn't.
    I have stated in a previous post that I agreed with Liu's award, but typically disagree with who receives the Peace Prize. China's opposition to Liu's prize is not the same as mine to Obama's. China is in opposition because it brings attention to their horrible human rights reccord. I am in opposition because of Obama's merit-less gift from a liberal committee simply because he wasn't a Republican (Bush).
    Then your efforts have been sadly underappreciated.
    I don't do it because I want to be appreciated or for an award. I do it because I want to help others. I'm just saying I would be more qualified than Obama when it comes to being awarded a Peace Prize based on merit and actions.
    Only if war were peace and evil good, but this is not Oceania - Fox News notwithstanding.
    Bush was one of the biggest givers of aid to poor African nations. He didn't start the War on Terror without the support of Congress and most of the free world. Obama can't even support his poor aunt or poverty stricken brother in Kenya.
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    Re: Chinese dissident Liu wins Nobel Peace Prize

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Our government incorrectly responded to irrational aggressors (Al Quaida).
    The invasion of Iraq was not a response to al Qaeda - it had been planned from the earliest days of Bush's first term, and lacked only particulars of timing and pretext. The attempt to manufacture a connection to 9/11 didn't start until every more plausible lie had been exhausted.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    However, when we started the war on terror most of the world was in support of us and recognized the threat.
    I refer exclusively to the invasion of Iraq, not operations in Afghanistan.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The wars could have gone better, but America was not an irrational aggressor.
    I agree, America was not an irrational aggressor - the people running its military and foreign policy were.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Actions speak louder than words, and their vision of "peace" is not what I see as true peace. As it seems, we can't diplomatically reason with an irrational aggressor like Iran.
    Iran's transgressions against its neighbors have been pretty tame compared to what you just dismissed as an "incorrect response." And there is no basis for such a blanket dismissal of diplomacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Withdrawal timelines are one of the most foolish things any nation can do during a war as well.
    Not when they're insisted on by the elected host government.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Obama is seen as a peace maker because the European left agrees with his illogical concept of peace and achievement foreign policies.
    In other words, he's seen as a peacemaker because he makes peace. Yes, I can see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    China is in opposition because it brings attention to their horrible human rights reccord. I am in opposition because of Obama's merit-less gift from a liberal committee simply because he wasn't a Republican (Bush).
    The difference in human rights records between Bush and the Chinese government was merely a matter of degree, and Barack Obama has been a lot more influential in affecting change both domestically and internationally than Liu. Whatever your reasons for harping on this, your objections are simply and obviously invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I'm just saying I would be more qualified than Obama when it comes to being awarded a Peace Prize based on merit and actions.
    And you're perfectly welcome to make such vague, unchallengeable statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Bush was one of the biggest givers of aid to poor African nations.
    1. Source?
    2. With what strings attached?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Obama can't even support his poor aunt or poverty stricken brother in Kenya.
    Your comment confirms my assessment of the level of your debate. That's unfortunate.

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