• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

1 Ohio school, 4 bullied teens dead at own hand

From the news story in the OP Meredith is one of the girls - and her brother committed suicide later, other brother overdosed (possible suicide) and the mother was on antidepressants - no mention of the father - Mom's still living but likely in the dumps, herself.

Yet the author of the article seems to try to connect all these suicides with the school-bullying. I agree with her mother, though, and I think the bullying in her particular situation was menial compared to the harm that came from her own broken family.

Per sexuality - I think teens these days are *so* confused. On one hand they have their families, friends, media telling them "come out - it's ok" - but at the same time the opposition to it from these same sources tells them that "it's not OK"

I imagine that in that situation there's just no way to actually figure out *what* to do - no matter what you do you'll be noticed, some will disapprove, and others will encourage your behavior no matter what it is.
 
Just look at Obama "A roll model?" Hell no he's a damn coke freak, and that is no Winston he's token either.

Awww... Barry. :)


The hateful little punks that bullied this young lady need a good old fashion trip to the wood shed.


The "hateful little punks" that bullied most of the aforementioned suicide victims (Phoebe Prince, Hope Witsell, Jessica Logan, I'm going to include Victoria Lindsay too, even though she wasn't a suicide) were the "good girls" in school.
That was their place in the social hierarchy. They were popular, athletic girls who got good grades, didn't have sex, organized school social events, followed the rules, and did everything conventional society hopes its teenage daughters will do.
They are plain, stocky girls, dull and uninspired and bland as day-old oatmeal, who are *popular* by virtue of having been at the school or in the school system for a long time and knowing everyone, belonging to sports teams, being involved in extracurricular activities and social clubs, having a well-established clique of like-minded friends, both male and female. By junior and senior year, they are collectively serving as the unofficial arbiter of who is and is not socially and morally acceptable, among the student body.

When some saucy little vixen with a touch of the exotic (say, Phoebe Prince, or Tori Lindsay, or Sladjana Vidovic) comes traipsing along deliberately attracting male attention, of course the school's moral majority, in the form of this popular, well respected good-girl clique, is going to feel ethically obligated to put a stop to it. After all, she's upsetting the established order of things. Worse, she's making them look and feel positively bovine by comparison.

It happens on a daily basis, and in cases where the "victim" in question doesn't kill herself, most of you would probably side with the so-called "bullies". They represent the conservative status quo.

How many of you really think it was okay for Phoebe Prince, a 15-year-old Irish immigrant, to enroll in a suburban Massachusetts high school and within two months, sleep with two of the more popular guys in school?
How many of you think it was okay for 18-year-old Jessica Logan to text nude pictures of herself to a fellow high school student, age 17?
Or for Hope Witsell, only 13, to send photos of her breasts to a classmate she liked, who wasn't even her boyfriend?

If these girls weren't dead, you probably wouldn't want your daughters associating with them.
You'd probably prefer your that daughters hang around with the respectable, wholesome, well-scrubbed, potato-faced "bullies"- the Flannery Mullins, Kayla Nareys, and Ashley Longes, the Mercades Nichols, Brittini Hardcastles and Kayla Hassells of the world- who spend their days practicing abstinence, playing on the soccer team, and organizing charity car washes for the school band.... and of course, combating the threat presented to their school communities by free-spirited "sluts" and "whores".

Sladjana Vidovic is dead, allegedly, because a group of classmates at Mentor High School "mocked her accent, taunted her with insults like "Slutty Jana" and threw food at her".

Is this case significantly different, in any way, from any of the aforementioned cases?
Will next week's case be any different, really?
 
Last edited:
Is calling someone a slut, throwing food at them, disseminating text pictures of their boobs that they took themselves, or writing on a social networking site that they are a whore really "bullying"?

Absolutely. That definitely falls into the category of harassment, which is a form of bullying. If it were my child, I'd collect evidence that this was occurring, take it first to the bully's parents, and if they refused to act, I'd take it to law enforcement.

At the least, posting pictures of a minor's breasts is considered dissemination of child pornography. That's a felony. In some states, this would fall under stalking statutes; in others, it would fall under the category of harassment. Both are illegal.

Harassment

As for your other comments, while I understand your point, your generalizing is ridiculous. My child is pretty conservative, but she has several friends who've experienced severe bullying for a variety of reasons. One girl was persuaded by her boyfriend to cut herself (naked) and let him watch. She did so, he took pictures, and then disseminated them on 4chan.org. I would estimate that 75% of the school ended up seeing them.

Her persecution went on both online and offline at school. It was brutal. Her parents are good friends of ours, and this girl has been in my house countless times since kindergarten. She and my daughter were best friends through most of elementary and middle school.

Telling a girl at that age that she should own her sexuality and feel okay with it, when she's been victimized in that way, is simply not workable.

I wish the parents would get her into therapy, but they refuse to.

Frankly, if the girl DID have any kind of emotional stability, this scenario wouldn't have occurred. Same with a 13-year-old girl who is sending tit shots to a boy. That's a girl who has issues going on, and needs help. That is not normal, healthy sexuality.
 
Last edited:
Full-time bullies should be removed from the schooling environment so that they can get help and psychological assessment. I'm not talking about petty teasing here, which everyone does at some point in school. I'm talking about the extreme cases.

People are not driven to suicide for no reason. It is not easy to come to that conclusion or to commit the act. The amount of suffering must have been overwhelming in order for it to override the will to live and survive. The other thing I'm wondering though is where are the coping resources of these children? Most suicides happen because suffering outweighs resources of support. Were the parents oblivious or unhelpful? Was the school turning a blind eye to pleas for help?

I was bullied pretty bad in grade 8. I'm over it now, but it mostly left a bitter taste in my mouth about the education system. I was bullied openly and in front of teachers. In fact, some teachers even took part. I'd imagine that in cases where bullying drives a person to suicide, you are looking at schools with teachers that are overworked and thus can't have time to care, they don't care or don't know how to adequately deal with it, or they are actively taking part.

Children should not be slipping through the cracks and dying because of bullying in the year 2010. Zero tolerance should mean zero tolerance. Remove the bullies, not the victims.

Bullies need to get their asses kicked. Either by the teachers, or by the students they picking on. Bullies are weak and they try to hide that weakness by praying on weaker kids. When they discover that the kids they're picking aren't all that weak, they usually back off.
 
It never ceases to amaze me how hacks seem to believe that everything that is discussed becomes an "I hate the other guys" issue.

Good for you. Funny how you onyl say that certain people on this forum, when everyone--including yourself--has been guilty of it at some time, or another. But, you're a mod and the rules apply differently to you.

But, hey, look on the bright side. At least these kids didn't show up at the school house with an AR-15 and a handfull of 30-round magazines.
 
In response to 1069... you raise a good point. Most of the people who bullied me back in the day were the "good kids", and I was made fun of because of my sensitive nature (which we know isn't okay if you're a "real man"). It was why I think very little happened to them... they were the moral majority and when the teachers were around they mostly behaved. But you know, even sometimes when I was being harassed by them, the teachers stood nearby in silent support.

I think though that it goes beyond sexual issues... it's the militancy of the middle class education system in general. It encourages conformity and a sort of status quo, and people who think outside of the box or tend to behave with independent attitudes tend to be the nails that get hammered down. The moral majority in this system tend to get more leeway with the behaviours they can get away with because they are openly and willfully conforming to the status quo.

The same sorts of structures exist in the work place. The working class are expected to perform, look, and behave a certain way. Those who don't tend to be the objects of bullying at the work place because they fall outside of the defined social roles. The bullies in that case are just the working class equivalents of the privileged students in the education system.
 
Happens all the time here and as for your appeal to the zero tolerance policies did they work in this instance? No, they didn't because the girl committed suicide due to bullying in school. So much for zero tolerance.

I would say she committed suicide because she had nobody to talk about her problems at school WITH.

Lack of parenting.

Too often parents think their job is done when the kids hit kindergarten.
 
I would say she committed suicide because she had nobody to talk about her problems at school WITH.

Lack of parenting.

Too often parents think their job is done when the kids hit kindergarten.

Not that I disagree, but this may also not be completely the parents fault. Kids don't like talking to their parents about stuff like this. So, if they parents didn't know it really wasn't all about a lack of parenting.
 
Telling a girl at that age that she should own her sexuality and feel okay with it, when she's been victimized in that way, is simply not workable.

I disagree. And I doubt many parents or educators have tried it; at least not lately.

Example:

Bully: Slut!

Erstwhile victim: Slut? What's that, somebody who likes to fvck? Okay. I'll accept that. I like to fvck... like anyone sane. Maybe I'll fvck your boyfriend. Shouldn't be much of a challenge, judging by the competition.

Bully: Uhhh.... slut. :confused:


:lamo

Frankly, if the girl DID have any kind of emotional stability, this scenario wouldn't have occurred. Same with a 13-year-old girl who is sending tit shots to a boy. That's a girl who has issues going on, and needs help. That is not normal, healthy sexuality.

I disagree again.
But the bullies agree. :)
 
Last edited:
This is just one of the many excuses people use for having public indoctrination centers. If kids didn't go to school they wouldn't learn how to socialize.

Public indoctrination centers? Benjamin Franklin had that in mind when he introduced public schooling. And you hate Benjamin Franklin. Because he liked big government. And indoctrinating the youth of this country. It was his goal. That's why he wanted to start this country.
 
Who cares who's fault it is. What this has to do with politics I'm still unsure. But bullying is on the "news" a lot lately, so its probably Obama's fault.
 
Who cares who's fault it is. What this has to do with politics I'm still unsure. But bullying is on the "news" a lot lately, so its probably Obama's fault.

It has everything to do with politics. School boards set the rules and regulations for the day to day operations of every school in America. School board members are elected to office. The environment that has been created by the politcians and the teachers's unions is one where no matter how ****ed up things get within the school system, almost no one can be held accountable.
 
Frankly, if the girl DID have any kind of emotional stability, this scenario wouldn't have occurred. Same with a 13-year-old girl who is sending tit shots to a boy. That's a girl who has issues going on, and needs help. That is not normal, healthy sexuality.

I have to disagree with you here as well. The reason why it's seen as indecent is because people underage are not supposed to engage in sexual behaviours, but they can an do. The internet has become one outlet for that, even if in the rest of society it's deemed as unacceptable. Virtually all teens (or at least boys) start masturbating at an early age. There is sexuality already happening at the outset, and it's normal. She didn't need help, she was expressing herself just as adults do, the only difference is that she was looked down upon because she didn't fit into the tidy morality box.

It's the bullies that need help. They are repressed do-gooders and they hate being reminded of it by someone who shows liberation, and so they will attack her at the earliest opportunity.
 
I have to disagree with you here as well. The reason why it's seen as indecent is because people underage are not supposed to engage in sexual behaviours, but they can an do. The internet has become one outlet for that, even if in the rest of society it's deemed as unacceptable. Virtually all teens (or at least boys) start masturbating at an early age. There is sexuality already happening at the outset, and it's normal. She didn't need help, she was expressing herself just as adults do, the only difference is that she was looked down upon because she didn't fit into the tidy morality box.

It's the bullies that need help. They are repressed do-gooders and they hate being reminded of it by someone who shows liberation, and so they will attack her at the earliest opportunity.


Agreed.



____________
 
Public indoctrination centers? Benjamin Franklin had that in mind when he introduced public schooling. And you hate Benjamin Franklin. Because he liked big government. And indoctrinating the youth of this country. It was his goal. That's why he wanted to start this country.

What revised history book did you read that in?
 
It has everything to do with politics. School boards set the rules and regulations for the day to day operations of every school in America. School board members are elected to office. The environment that has been created by the politcians and the teachers's unions is one where no matter how ****ed up things get within the school system, almost no one can be held accountable.

So. Boards of executive officers set the rules and regulations for the day to day operations of every corporation in America. Executive board members are appointed to office. So obviously this is set up this way so when someone goes postal at thier offices almost no one can be held accountable. Obviously it is the workplace's responsibility for shootings that may occur according to your logic.

Your double standards are laughable.
 
So. Boards of executive officers set the rules and regulations for the day to day operations of every corporation in America. Executive board members are appointed to office. So obviously this is set up this way so when someone goes postal at thier offices almost no one can be held accountable. Obviously it is the workplace's responsibility for shootings that may occur according to your logic.

Your double standards are laughable.

I'm guessing you've never heard of human resources. A workplace is as responsible for a mass shooting, as it is for sexual harassment and bullying within the workplace. Unless, you contend that a company isn't responsible for sexual harassment and bullying in the workplace.
 
I don't remember the outrage against the bottling distributer in Connecticut for being the root cause of a man killing 8 people.

Also, teachers shouldn't have unions because they teach the youth of America and get paid way too much and don't deserve benefits. It would be better for the system if they didn't have a say. Because they are teachers, indoctrinated by the same system they now work for. OMG you guys are driving me ****ing crazy.
 
I don't remember the outrage against the bottling distributer in Connecticut for being the root cause of a man killing 8 people.

Also, teachers shouldn't have unions because they teach the youth of America and get paid way too much and don't deserve benefits. It would be better for the system if they didn't have a say. Because they are teachers, indoctrinated by the same system they now work for. OMG you guys are driving me ****ing crazy.

It would be better, if substandard teachers were allowed to ****-canned, without an act of Congress. If it were possible to unload some of the dead weight that now overloads our school systems, it would be easier to justify more money in the pockets of school teachers. If you have a group of people that knows that without breaking a law, it's virtually impossible to get fired, then there's never going to be any incentive for them to perform to any sort of higher standard. People work much harder when they're afraid for their job.
 
It would be better, if substandard teachers were allowed to ****-canned, without an act of Congress. If it were possible to unload some of the dead weight that now overloads our school systems, it would be easier to justify more money in the pockets of school teachers. If you have a group of people that knows that without breaking a law, it's virtually impossible to get fired, then there's never going to be any incentive for them to perform to any sort of higher standard. People work much harder when they're afraid for their job.

Hey man, I don't know the last time you checked...but the money our school district teachers get paid is a direct result of referenda passed or denied by local contituents. By a democratic vote.

Also, most people who go to post secondary school for 8 years and dedicate thier studies to one particular subject only to be paid 40k max starting could be considered "of higher standard." And that is not to say there are no standards or requirements teachers must meet in order to keep thier jobs. ESPECIALLY in colleges and universities. I'm ready for you to start making sense any time now.
 
From my perspective, I'm not sure what teachers could really do about bullying, as most of it takes place below their sightline (with the exception of some rare and remarkably screwed-up cases- such as the one mentioned by Orion- where the teachers actually abet the popular students in putting some poor misfit in his place).

I'm not at all sure what Barack Obama could do about it either, nor why he's even being brought into the discussion.

A seminar about bullying could be held in the school auditorium, with Obama himself as the keynote speaker, and the bullies would sit politely and nod earnestly, and then go to lunch afterward and continue to throw food at "Slutty Jana".
They wouldn't really consider it "bullying"; more like their patriotic duty.
 
Hey man, I don't know the last time you checked...but the money our school district teachers get paid is a direct result of referenda passed or denied by local contituents. By a democratic vote.

yeah and if there weren't so many dumbass teachers in the system, people would be more motivated to grant them a raise.

Also, most people who go to post secondary school for 8 years and dedicate thier studies to one particular subject only to be paid 40k max starting could be considered "of higher standard." And that is not to say there are no standards or requirements teachers must meet in order to keep thier jobs. ESPECIALLY in colleges and universities. I'm ready for you to start making sense any time now.

In that case, the standards aren't high enough.

No one can argue that there aren't a helluvalotta teachers in this countries that have no business being teachers.
 
From my perspective, I'm not sure what teachers could really do about bullying, as most of it takes place below their sightline (with the exception of some rare and remarkably screwed-up cases- such as the one mentioned by Orion- where the teachers actually abet the popular students in putting some poor misfit in his place).
I'm not at all sure what Barack Obama could do about it either, nor why he's even being brought into the discussion.
A seminar about bullying could be held in the school auditorium, with Obama himself as the keynote speaker, and the bullies would sit politely and nod earnestly, and then go to lunch afterward and continue to throw food at "Slutty Jana".
They wouldn't really consider it "bullying"; more like their patriotic duty.

Well when kids are starting to be taught to not be gay, a bully would assume there's probably something wrong with Gay Steve. He deserves to be bullied. He's different and will go to hell. As if that weren't enough.
 
From my perspective, I'm not sure what teachers could really do about bullying, as most of it takes place below their sightline (with the exception of some rare and remarkably screwed-up cases- such as the one mentioned by Orion- where the teachers actually abet the popular students in putting some poor misfit in his place).

I'm not at all sure what Barack Obama could do about it either, nor why he's even being brought into the discussion.

A seminar about bullying could be held in the school auditorium, with Obama himself as the keynote speaker, and the bullies would sit politely and nod earnestly, and then go to lunch afterward and continue to throw food at "Slutty Jana".
They wouldn't really consider it "bullying"; more like their patriotic duty.

They could snatch those littel bastards up and beat their asses.

Why weren't there any teachers in the cafateria monitoring the activity of the kids?
 
yeah and if there weren't so many dumbass teachers in the system, people would be more motivated to grant them a raise.
In that case, the standards aren't high enough.
No one can argue that there aren't a helluvalotta teachers in this countries that have no business being teachers.

Your right. Like no one can argue that there aren't a helluvalotta lawyers, doctors, executives, politicians, managers, business owners, in this country that have no business being any of those.

Generic. Generic. Generic.
 
Back
Top Bottom