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Thread: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    How is wanting everyone to be able to recieve medical treatment putting politics first?
    It's putting politics first, because Obamacare isn't going to work, yet all we're going to hear from The Messiah, is how he fixed the healthcare system. his ultimate goal, is to collapse the healthcare system, so the government has to step in, save the day and create a single payer system.

    This has nothing to do with providing everyone with insurance and everything to do with a political agenda.

    Everyone already has access to medical treatment. We didn't need this bill.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I see no data in this opinion piece to back up your statements that they made record profits. I want the numbers not an opinion piece.
    I would argue that "record profits" is a fairly meaningless term. When companies spend more they are obviously going to have to charge their customers more, which means "record profits". I think a better metric is profit margin.

    The profit margin of the health insurance industry is currently 4.8%. This is not a large profit margin,and does not indicate that insurance companies are raising premiums beyond reasonableness.

    Industry Browser - Healthcare - Health Care Plans Industry - Company List

    Prior to the economic downturn, the inidustry was still only at 6.2% profit margin. Again, not unreasaonable. At the time, I was nearly making that in my risk-free money market account.

    Fortune 500 2008: Top Performers - Most Profitable Industries: Return on Revenues

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    You missed the part where all three stated that due to the 90% income tax rate that companies offered health insurance as a way to get past the income tax in the 40's. The government agreed. I said nothing about the changes in treatment from homes to hospitals. You are ascribing something to me that I did not say.
    You mean this:

    Blue Cross and Blue Shield were first to enter the health insurance market because commercial insurance companies were reluctant to even offer health insurance early in the century. As previously mentioned, they feared that they would not be able to overcome problems relating to adverse selection, so that offering health insurance would not be profitable. The success of Blue Cross and Blue Shield showed just how easily adverse selection problems could be overcome: by focusing on providing health insurance only to groups of employed workers. This would allow commercial insurance companies to avoid adverse selection because they would insure relatively young, healthy people who did not individually seek health insurance. After viewing the success of Blue Cross and Blue Shield, commercial health insurance companies began to move rapidly into the health insurance market. As shown in Figure 1, the market for health insurance exploded in size in the 1940s, growing from a total enrollment of 20,662,000 in 1940 to nearly 142,334,000 in 1950 (Health Insurance Institute 1961, Source Book, p. 10). As the Superintendent of Insurance in New York, Louis H. Pink, noted in 1939


    If so, explain the problem.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You mean this:

    Blue Cross and Blue Shield were first to enter the health insurance market because commercial insurance companies were reluctant to even offer health insurance early in the century. As previously mentioned, they feared that they would not be able to overcome problems relating to adverse selection, so that offering health insurance would not be profitable. The success of Blue Cross and Blue Shield showed just how easily adverse selection problems could be overcome: by focusing on providing health insurance only to groups of employed workers. This would allow commercial insurance companies to avoid adverse selection because they would insure relatively young, healthy people who did not individually seek health insurance. After viewing the success of Blue Cross and Blue Shield, commercial health insurance companies began to move rapidly into the health insurance market. As shown in Figure 1, the market for health insurance exploded in size in the 1940s, growing from a total enrollment of 20,662,000 in 1940 to nearly 142,334,000 in 1950 (Health Insurance Institute 1961, Source Book, p. 10). As the Superintendent of Insurance in New York, Louis H. Pink, noted in 1939


    If so, explain the problem.
    The part you keep skipping over is the government's 90% income tax rate which forced employers to offer a tax-free compensation alternative in the form of health insurance.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    The part you keep skipping over is the government's 90% income tax rate which forced employers to offer a tax-free compensation alternative in the form of health insurance.
    I've read the entire thing. Quote the part you are refering to and explan the problem.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I've read the entire thing. Quote the part you are refering to and explan the problem.
    From the first link.

    Private insurers accelerated these efforts in the 1940s when businesses, seeking ways to get around wartime wage controls, began to compete for labor by offering health insurance. If government regulators had thought to freeze fringe benefits along with wages, we might have avoided making the workplace primarily responsible for supplying health insurance, a role that most people now agree was ill-advised. Instead, the government jumped on the bandwagon by exempting from the income tax company expenses associated with health care.
    Second link.

    Offering insurance policies to employee groups not only benefited insurers, but also benefited employers. During World War II, wage and price controls prevented employers from using wages to compete for scarce labor. Under the 1942 Stabilization Act, Congress limited the wage increases that could be offered by firms, but permitted the adoption of employee insurance plans. In this way, health benefit packages offered one means of securing workers.
    Third link.

    Employee benefit plans proliferated in the 1940’s and 1950’s. Strong unions bargained for better benefit packages, including tax-free, employer-sponsored health insurance. Wartime (1939-1945) wage freezes imposed by the government actually accelerated the spread of group health care. Unable by law to attract workers by paying more, employers instead improved their benefit packages, adding health care.
    Before 1940, health insurance was limited to Blue Cross/Blue Shield non-profit organizations. It was a single payer system where the patient paid the hospital/doctors directly for medical care. Health insurance didn't take off until the government intervened in the workplace by enacting a 90% income tax and wage controls in the 1940's. In order to ensure that workers were taken care of, companies offered health insurance as part of the compensation package because it was tax free. That is what I said when you demanded I produce proof that the problem originated with the government intervening in the workplace.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Right it took off. Why do you see this as a problem? Medicine had changed. People could no longer get care at home, and hospitals were not affordable for the mass population. You presented this as a bad thing government did, and I'm still unsure as to why. it is the negative you attach to it that I don't get. Would we have been better off, as we were before these efforts, having advanced care only for those who could afford it? Then as now, few could afford advanced care. There is no chance it would have become affordable for all without insurance.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Right it took off. Why do you see this as a problem? Medicine had changed. People could no longer get care at home, and hospitals were not affordable for the mass population. You presented this as a bad thing government did, and I'm still unsure as to why. it is the negative you attach to it that I don't get. Would we have been better off, as we were before these efforts, having advanced care only for those who could afford it? Then as now, few could afford advanced care. There is no chance it would have become affordable for all without insurance.
    It's called cause and effect. Prior to government intervention, health care was affordable. After, it's the mess we have now. The solution isn't more government, but less.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    It's called cause and effect. Prior to government intervention, health care was affordable. After, it's the mess we have now. The solution isn't more government, but less.
    No, it wasn't. See, that's why I quoted the first thing I quoted in response. Advances changed that. It couldn't be done at home any more and was not affordable. And the more we advanced, the less affordable it became. The major factor in cost was medical advancement that move care from the home and family doctors, who often traded services from fruits and vegteables (soemthing we won't return to). And these adbancements neccestated more training and education. So the horse doctor could no longer function as our doctor any more. Nor could the local healer. Medicane had changed, and so did the cost. It was never ever going to be affordable for all ever again.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, it wasn't. See, that's why I quoted the first thing I quoted in response. Advances changed that. It couldn't be done at home any more and was not affordable. And the more we advanced, the less affordable it became. The major factor in cost was medical advancement that move care from the home and family doctors, who often traded services from fruits and vegteables (soemthing we won't return to). And these adbancements neccestated more training and education. So the horse doctor could no longer function as our doctor any more. Nor could the local healer. Medicane had changed, and so did the cost. It was never ever going to be affordable for all ever again.
    First off, the changes within the medical establishment was the result of government interference based off of AMA recommendations. In restricting the amount of doctors that could be enrolled increased the cost for the doctors due to supply and demand. Part of this was the advent of state licensing boards which the state governments required doctors to be licensed. I could go on about this, but early medical care has nothing to do with insurance. When I was a kid, I'm 41 now, you still had the option to pay and health insurance still wasn't to the point where it is now. In any case, the government intervenes in some manner and affects the prices of health care either through expensive licensing, regulations, and FDA approval. The insurance do not play a role in this aspect since this is what the government does. Insurance was created to overcome the problems of the government interfering in health care and the workplace to begin with.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 10-07-10 at 06:26 PM.

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