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3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

Boo Radley said:
No, because you don't have to buy because you're alive. That simply isn't the reasoning.
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Yes it is the reason why you have to buy. If you aren't alive then you don't have to have health insurance. The breathing challenged are exempt from having to purchase health insurance. Failure to purchase health insurance incurs a tax/fine.
 
Whovian said:
Yeah... how could it even 'possibly' be the fault of Obamacare, right? It's all reainbows and unicorns, remember folks???
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again, how can we know? how can YOU know?
 
The_Patriot said:
Yes it is the reason why you have to buy. If you aren't alive then you don't have to have health insurance. The breathing challenged are exempt from having to purchase health insurance. Failure to purchase health insurance incurs a tax/fine.
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No, it really isn't. The reasoning is to protect others from having to pay for the reckless and irresponsible.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Doctors are forced to provide assistance to people regardless of whether they have insurance. That is one of the reasons healthcare costs are increasing, people use the ER as a general practitioners office due to lack of insurance. Thus, is it not fair to somewhat protect these doctors and require people to buy even some minimal amount of coverage to insure that doctors are compensated something for their work?
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I have no disputes with what you said. The only thing I'd add is that it's partly due to the government's interference to begin with that it has gotten this bad.
 
Boo Radley said:
No, it really isn't. The reasoning is to protect others from having to pay for the reckless and irresponsible.
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Yes, because we all know that people knowingly get sick and suffer critical injuries. They wake up today and say I'm going to impale myself on this pole for the hell of it. The only reason why you have to buy insurance is the single condition that you are alive. Dead people are exempt from having to pay for it.
 
The_Patriot said:
I have no disputes with what you said. The only thing I'd add is that it's partly due to the government's interference to begin with that it has gotten this bad.
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You may remember that the requirement to treat everyone also didn't occur in a vaccum or merely something the government thought up with no context. As I recall, it came about due to people dying while not receiving treatment. I remember a young girl in Georgia who died because a hopsital wouldn't take her and the charity hosptial was too far away. but, the point is, and don't lose sight of it, is that we the people wouldn't accept this condition, and our leaders merely acted on our will.
 
The_Patriot said:
I have no disputes with what you said. The only thing I'd add is that it's partly due to the government's interference to begin with that it has gotten this bad.
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Listen, even as a Democrat, I to think that a smaller government would ultimately be best, however regardless of what party takes office, neither will actually shrink the federal government. Why? Once institutions grow so big they are near impossible to dismantle. Look at the attempts by Donald Rumsfield to dismantle some of the military bases that really are no longer functional or even needed. He was nearly ripped apart by congressmen from both parties because doing such rollbacks cost people jobs, jobs lost of constituents normally equals votes lost, thus we will never really be able to see whole-sale dismantling of the federal machine.
 
Whovian said:
You appear to completely discount the possibility.
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We have history, even recent history, and we can see nothing new is happening that wasn't happening before.
 
Whovian said:
You appear to completely discount the possibility.
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not at all....i did, however, expect businesses to use the new bill as a reason to cut benefits. that's what they do. benefits have been being cut for quite some time now, this is nothing new. why were my benefits cut 2 years ago?
 
tlmorg02 said:
Listen, even as a Democrat, I to think that a smaller government would ultimately be best, however regardless of what party takes office, neither will actually shrink the federal government. Why? Once institutions grow so big they are near impossible to dismantle. Look at the attempts by Donald Rumsfield to dismantle some of the military bases that really are no longer functional or even needed. He was nearly ripped apart by congressmen from both parties because doing such rollbacks cost people jobs, jobs lost of constituents normally equals votes lost, thus we will never really be able to see whole-sale dismantling of the federal machine.
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Yes, because a military base (delegated power) is the same as health insurance (not delegated).
 
rivrrat said:
People should not be getting their insurance through their companies anyway. They're just hurting themselves by doing so.
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Correct.....If your insurance is independent of your employment, you are far better off when you get tired of the BS on the job. You aren't dependent on your employer in any way.
 
Boo Radley said:
We have history, even recent history, and we can see nothing new is happening that wasn't happening before.
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Again, you completely discount the possibility.

We also have companies like mine who have not increased the portion of health insurance premiums it's employees pay in a few years, now passing on an increase. Of course, the fact it coincides with the enactment of Obamacare means nothing, right? No possible connection there. None. Nada. ZIP.
 
The_Patriot said:
Yes, because we all know that people knowingly get sick and suffer critical injuries. They wake up today and say I'm going to impale myself on this pole for the hell of it. The only reason why you have to buy insurance is the single condition that you are alive. Dead people are exempt from having to pay for it.
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No, again, because a person doesn't know and doesn't knowingly do these things, this is the reason for having to buy health insurance. If they knew and did so willingly, there would be no reason to make it mandatory. I'm sorry, but your reasoning is inaccurate on this.
 
Whovian said:
Again, you completely discount the possibility.

We also have companies like mine who have not increased the portion of health insurance premiums it's employees pay in a few years, now passing on an increase. Of course, the fact it coincides with the enactment of Obamacare means nothing, right? No possible connection there. None. Nada. ZIP.
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when will your company be affected?
 
The_Patriot said:
The problem with the AMA is that they removed holistic and other forms of treatment that are perfectly valid in their push to make science based medicine the only provider of medical care. They used the government to reach their goals.

Happy early birthday. :) Mine was last month. :lol:

I do not see a delegation of power from the states to the federal government for public safety and health. Just like I do not see a delegation of power for the federal government to intervene into the market. I also do not see the authority for the government to make you purchase a service just for being alive.
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How many people use "holistic" doctors? I won't even let a chiropractor near me, much less someone who thinks that diet or a supplement regimen can cure cancers. People have had their necks broken in chiropractor's offices....but that isn't the only reason. I can remember ads back in the 60's where these quacks claimed to be able to cure all kinds of diseases by just aligning your spine. Sorry, if you already have cancer, a back massage won't cut it.
 
UtahBill said:
How many people use "holistic" doctors? I won't even let a chiropractor near me, much less someone who thinks that diet or a supplement regimen can cure cancers. People have had their necks broken in chiropractor's offices....but that isn't the only reason. I can remember ads back in the 60's where these quacks claimed to be able to cure all kinds of diseases by just aligning your spine. Sorry, if you already have cancer, a back massage won't cut it.
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chiropractors can be great. you just have to find one who realizes his specialty doesn't replace all medicine.
 
Whovian said:
Again, you completely discount the possibility.

We also have companies like mine who have not increased the portion of health insurance premiums it's employees pay in a few years, now passing on an increase. Of course, the fact it coincides with the enactment of Obamacare means nothing, right? No possible connection there. None. Nada. ZIP.
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Long before the bill was brought up in committee, some businesses were raising premiums. The new healthcare bill is just an added excuse for businesses to pass on more of the costs to the employees.
 
Whovian said:
Again, you completely discount the possibility.

We also have companies like mine who have not increased the portion of health insurance premiums it's employees pay in a few years, now passing on an increase. Of course, the fact it coincides with the enactment of Obamacare means nothing, right? No possible connection there. None. Nada. ZIP.
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liblady said:
when will your company be affected?
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I got the letter about the increase about 2 weeks ago. The costs increase in Jan. We've not had an increase in our contribution in 3 years.
 
Whovian said:
I got the letter about the increase about 2 weeks ago. The costs increase in Jan. We've not had an increase in our contribution in 3 years.
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i meant when will your company be affected by the new laws?
 
liblady said:
chiropractors can be great. you just have to find one who realizes his specialty doesn't replace all medicine.
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I used one once, he was a regular doctor who also had chiropractic training. He showed me some self-exercises that help to relieve my lower back pain, one was particularly effective. But before I let him twist my back, I told him that he wasn't to do anything drastic.
One of my son's friends was a chiropractor, until he killed a patient with defective neck bones. Wasn't his fault, you might say, but an xray would have prevented that death.
I have an even lower opinion of acupuncture and other wishful thinking cures...
 
UtahBill said:
How many people use "holistic" doctors? I won't even let a chiropractor near me, much less someone who thinks that diet or a supplement regimen can cure cancers. People have had their necks broken in chiropractor's offices....but that isn't the only reason. I can remember ads back in the 60's where these quacks claimed to be able to cure all kinds of diseases by just aligning your spine. Sorry, if you already have cancer, a back massage won't cut it.
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I've had experiences with both medical doctors and chiropractors. Back when I suffered my spinal injury, the medical doctors couldn't figure out why my right leg had a bad limp, I was hunched over at a 45 degree angle, constant falling, and in severe pain. I saw neurologists, pain specialists, orthopedists, and other specialists to figure out what was wrong with my body. They never could figure it out nor could they get my back into its normal upright position. It wasn't until I saw a chiropractor, after having to use a wheelchair to get around for a year, that I was able to stand up straight for the first time and walk with a slight limp. The pain is still there, but I'm not hunched over and falling.

Although, I did go see a sports therapist after being referred by the company doctors and he misdiagnosed my spinal injury as a result of torn back muscles. He put me on a regimen of electric stimulation of the nerves, heat pads, and weight lifting for my spine. He ended up damaging my spine worse since I was diagnosed with spinal degenerative disease aka rheumatiod arthritus of the spine.
 
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UtahBill said:
I used one once, he was a regular doctor who also had chiropractic training. He showed me some self-exercises that help to relieve my lower back pain, one was particularly effective. But before I let him twist my back, I told him that he wasn't to do anything drastic.
One of my son's friends was a chiropractor, until he killed a patient with defective neck bones. Wasn't his fault, you might say, but an xray would have prevented that death.
I have an even lower opinion of acupuncture and other wishful thinking cures...
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i saw a chiro for repetitive stress injury, instead of a therapist. worked wonders, and very quickly. after i was healed, i fully expected him to try to keep me as a patient, but he just said, "you're fine.....call me if you have problems"......no once a month adjustments or anything like that.
 
liblady said:
i saw a chiro for repetitive stress injury, instead of a therapist. worked wonders, and very quickly. after i was healed, i fully expected him to try to keep me as a patient, but he just said, "you're fine.....call me if you have problems"......no once a month adjustments or anything like that.
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He must have already had his boat paid off.....:2razz:

I quit a dentist once, because suddenly my teeth needed all kinds of things. He had just gotten divorced, remarried, bought a corvette, and a new boat.
One of his employees quit, saw her later at soccer game, and she told me all about it...

OTOH, my favorite auto mechanic once refused to charge me for a repair, saying he shouldn't have missed that the previous time the car was there.
He said, "my house, my truck, my boat, and my summer cabin are all paid for, so I don't need to make you pay for my mistakes".
 
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