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Thread: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

  1. #141
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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Yes, there are people that can afford insurance, yet don't purchase it. These people still won't purchase insurance until they are sick, but will simply pay the fine - since it's smaller then the premiums.

    However, if they do actually purchase the insurance, it won't cause the nation's health care spending (as a whole) to decrease. By having insurance, they are more likely to go to the doctor for minor things (cough, scrape) and will still have to go to the doctor for the big things (MI, CVA, etc).

    I've also seen studies that show increased preventitive maintenance (something your friends will now obtain free) actually causes increased national spending on healthcare. The reason put forth was that you can't tell who would have been affected by the disease being prevented, so you have to provide it to everyone. Everyone receiving the preventative care is a larger cost, overall, then caring for the relatively small percentage that will actually contract the disease/condition.

    What increasing insurance coverage to more people will do is more evenly spread the greater costs to everyone that has insurance or pays their bills without insurance. Again, it won't actually reduce the nation's overall spending on healthcare.
    If there are copays, people are less likely to go in for scrapes and bruises...which is a problem when I was in the military. Dependent care was free, so some dependents went in for little stuff....
    Will paying the fines get them instant coverage?
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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    No, but I am much more likely to believe employers and insurance companies, when so many are coming out and stating that it is making a difference in the premiums that will have to be charged.

    Common sense will also tell you that insurance premiums are going up due to the reforms. You can't add benefits (no pre-ex, no recissions, adults covered on their parents policy until 26YO, no limits) without there being associated costs.

    Additionally, you wouldn't have the administration having to grant waivers to companies to prevent them from having to drop employee insurance without there being truth to what the employers are stating.

    Lastly, most states, and health care reform requires that a certain percentage of health insurance premiums be used for health care. What would be the point of increasing premiums for health insurance if there weren't costs associated with the reform? Increasing the premium without increased costs, would just cause them to run afoul of the already existing laws and the new laws as put forth by the reforms.
    that's not actually correct. If more well and healthy people pay premiums, by a large margin, it would more than cover the costs of adding those with pre-existing conditions and other added benefits. Employers don't want insurance hassles at all, and that is incentive to misrepresent the burden. Insurance companies make the most money if they take in and don't pay out, giving them reason to misrepresent. So, I would spend any time "believeing" anyone. Instead, more objective and verifiable information should be asked for and given.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    that's not actually correct. If more well and healthy people pay premiums, by a large margin, it would more than cover the costs of adding those with pre-existing conditions and other added benefits. Employers don't want insurance hassles at all, and that is incentive to misrepresent the burden. Insurance companies make the most money if they take in and don't pay out, giving them reason to misrepresent. So, I would spend any time "believeing" anyone. Instead, more objective and verifiable information should be asked for and given.
    In fact, insurance companies have already said that they don't mind covering people with pre-existing conditions, if everybody is insured. They can't operate at a loss and stay in business. The real bad guys here are those who can pay, but won't.
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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    In fact, insurance companies have already said that they don't mind covering people with pre-existing conditions, if everybody is insured. They can't operate at a loss and stay in business. The real bad guys here are those who can pay, but won't.
    I know. That's why without the public option there had to be a mandate. I sometimes don't think people make the connections, which is why so many want to stop insurance companies from denying due to pre-existing conditions, but don't want a mandate.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    In fact, insurance companies have already said that they don't mind covering people with pre-existing conditions, if everybody is insured. They can't operate at a loss and stay in business. The real bad guys here are those who can pay, but won't.
    The reason for rates going up, is because the healthcare bill forced insurance companies to lower their operating capital from 25% to 15%. That 15% has to generate as much cash as the 25% did and the only way to do that is to take 15% from a larger pie.
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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The reason for rates going up, is because the healthcare bill forced insurance companies to lower their operating capital from 25% to 15%. That 15% has to generate as much cash as the 25% did and the only way to do that is to take 15% from a larger pie.
    Really? I don't believe it...
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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    If there are copays, people are less likely to go in for scrapes and bruises...which is a problem when I was in the military. Dependent care was free, so some dependents went in for little stuff....
    Less likely, perhaps, but people do it all the time. I know many, including my wife, who will go in all the time for small stuff. She has insurance, the $20.00 co-pay isn't a big deal to her and many others.

    Will paying the fines get them instant coverage?
    No, they pay the fines while they are still healthy then sign up for insurance once something happens. The people you are describing will obviously do this, since it's essentially what they are doing now.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    So 3M is CHOOSING not to provide health insurance for thier employees over 65 by electing for a cheaper alternative, therefore enabling them to cut costs and hire more people.

    I'll take the trade.
    and so it goes...

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    that's not actually correct. If more well and healthy people pay premiums, by a large margin, it would more than cover the costs of adding those with pre-existing conditions and other added benefits.
    I'm not convinced that is a true statement. Getting rid of benefit limits, not allowing insurance companies to deny benefits, etc, etc, will more than make up for the benefit of adding healthy people to the pool. As it is now, with the limitations on insurance, a small percentage of the population is using a large percentage of the health care. By removing all the limitations, I would suspect that a larger percentage of the nation will begin using an even larger percentage of the health care.

    This can be seen in MA, which has insurance mandates. Their insurance premiums in that state have increased faster than the rest of the country - since Romneycare was passed. This even with their governor illegally ordering the insurance commissioner to deny any premium increases on small businesses and individual policies. This was found illegal by a state judge and those premium increases are beginning to come in and be approved - which means the states premiums will increase even faster than they already had.

    Employers don't want insurance hassles at all, and that is incentive to misrepresent the burden. Insurance companies make the most money if they take in and don't pay out, giving them reason to misrepresent. So, I would spend any time "believeing" anyone. Instead, more objective and verifiable information should be asked for and given.
    In other words, anyone that says something I don't want to believe is lying and part of the conspiracy. I've found that you can't argue with conspiracy theorists. I used to help out at a homeless shelter, and there was this one guy there that believed there was some type of conspiracy with the way toilets flushed (I can't recall the specifics). You Couldn't prove him wrong. No matter what you said, it was all part of the conspiracy. and that's not something you can ever disprove.
    Last edited by buck; 10-08-10 at 08:57 PM.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Yes, there are people that can afford insurance, yet don't purchase it. These people still won't purchase insurance until they are sick, but will simply pay the fine - since it's smaller then the premiums.

    However, if they do actually purchase the insurance, it won't cause the nation's health care spending (as a whole) to decrease. By having insurance, they are more likely to go to the doctor for minor things (cough, scrape) and will still have to go to the doctor for the big things (MI, CVA, etc).

    I've also seen studies that show increased preventitive maintenance (something your friends will now obtain free) actually causes increased national spending on healthcare. The reason put forth was that you can't tell who would have been affected by the disease being prevented, so you have to provide it to everyone. Everyone receiving the preventative care is a larger cost, overall, then caring for the relatively small percentage that will actually contract the disease/condition.

    What increasing insurance coverage to more people will do is more evenly spread the greater costs to everyone that has insurance or pays their bills without insurance. Again, it won't actually reduce the nation's overall spending on healthcare.
    And yet Australia where health care IS free the cost is much much much lower. With a caveat. Some people DO try and abuse the system but they are gently encouraged not to do so (I.e. turning up to the hospital with vague stomach pains and packed bags and admitting you have just been tossed out of your accomodation will NOT get you admitted to the hospital but it might get you a chair in the waiting room overnight.

    but even here our difficulty is often getting people to admit they ARE sick because "they don't want to bother anyone" so you get women (men are wussier) with massive cancerous growths in obvious severe pain, appologising for making a fuss
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