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Thread: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

  1. #91
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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    First off, the changes within the medical establishment was the result of government interference based off of AMA recommendations. In restricting the amount of doctors that could be enrolled increased the cost for the doctors due to supply and demand. Part of this was the advent of state licensing boards which the state governments required doctors to be licensed. I could go on about this, but early medical care has nothing to do with insurance. When I was a kid, I'm 41 now, you still had the option to pay and health insurance still wasn't to the point where it is now. In any case, the government intervenes in some manner and affects the prices of health care either through expensive licensing, regulations, and FDA approval. The insurance do not play a role in this aspect since this is what the government does. Insurance was created to overcome the problems of the government interfering in health care and the workplace to begin with.
    yes, to a degree, but these recommendations were not made in a vaccum. The science and technology have improved. Wealthy people were seeing the fruits of this improvement, and poorer people were not. Quacks were out there, and we could recoginze them better. Public safety was an issue. Again, these were positive moves. We would not be better off if doctors had no standards to meet. We would not be better off if anyone could claim to be a doctor and do anything.

    BTW, I turn 52 this month. Spent much of my life without insurance and thus without proper care. As a child I was hospitalzed a few times (blood poisoning, a serious burn, and an ankle fracture in three places). Only had insurance for the last one. Had no money to pay for any of them. But I damn sure am glad those who treated me knew what they were doing, and that someone made sure there was a professional standard.

    Look, every problem requires people get together and seek solutions. There is nothing easy about doing this. goivernment is faced witha problem, in this case, public health and safety. This requires they get information and make decisions. Advances had changed the world. And good care was less affordable, and becoming even more expensive the more we learned. So, changes had to be made. They got a report. Considered the options and make the call. I think they got it right. But the factor that led to this was the advances in medicine. With these changes, we'd likely see a larger division between those who have care and those who don't.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    yes, to a degree, but these recommendations were not made in a vaccum. The science and technology have improved. Wealthy people were seeing the fruits of this improvement, and poorer people were not. Quacks were out there, and we could recoginze them better. Public safety was an issue. Again, these were positive moves. We would not be better off if doctors had no standards to meet. We would not be better off if anyone could claim to be a doctor and do anything.

    BTW, I turn 52 this month. Spent much of my life without insurance and thus without proper care. As a child I was hospitalzed a few times (blood poisoning, a serious burn, and an ankle fracture in three places). Only had insurance for the last one. Had no money to pay for any of them. But I damn sure am glad those who treated me knew what they were doing, and that someone made sure there was a professional standard.

    Look, every problem requires people get together and seek solutions. There is nothing easy about doing this. goivernment is faced witha problem, in this case, public health and safety. This requires they get information and make decisions. Advances had changed the world. And good care was less affordable, and becoming even more expensive the more we learned. So, changes had to be made. They got a report. Considered the options and make the call. I think they got it right. But the factor that led to this was the advances in medicine. With these changes, we'd likely see a larger division between those who have care and those who don't.
    The problem with the AMA is that they removed holistic and other forms of treatment that are perfectly valid in their push to make science based medicine the only provider of medical care. They used the government to reach their goals.

    Happy early birthday. Mine was last month.

    I do not see a delegation of power from the states to the federal government for public safety and health. Just like I do not see a delegation of power for the federal government to intervene into the market. I also do not see the authority for the government to make you purchase a service just for being alive.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 10-07-10 at 06:56 PM.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    The problem with the AMA is that they removed holistic and other forms of treatment that are perfectly valid in their push to make science based medicine the only provider of medical care. They used the government to reach their goals.

    Happy early birthday. Mine was last month.

    I do not see a delegation of power from the states to the federal government for public safety and health. Just like I do not see a delegation of power for the federal government to intervene into the market. I also do not see the authority for the government to make you purchase a service just for being alive.
    How valid some of them are is debatable. But if my choice is between a standard that might remove one questionably valid option along with countless clearly not valid options and allowing anything goes, I choose having a standard.

    Well, thanks and happy belated birthday to you.

    I think you misread the bill. You're not buying the service just for being alive. You'll buying it to cover when you guess wrong, in order to prevent us from paying for your stupidity. In that sense, it is no different than auto insurance. The purpose is to not have the rest of us pay for the foolishness of others. Now, if you can come up with a way that all or most will accept in which an critically injuryed or ill person would not be treated because they can't pay, then there might be an argument not to have mandatory insurance coverage. While I firmly believe a public option would have served us better than this deal with thte insurance cmpanies, once we removed the that superior option, this really was the best remaining choice.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    How valid some of them are is debatable. But if my choice is between a standard that might remove one questionably valid option along with countless clearly not valid options and allowing anything goes, I choose having a standard.

    Well, thanks and happy belated birthday to you.

    I think you misread the bill. You're not buying the service just for being alive. You'll buying it to cover when you guess wrong, in order to prevent us from paying for your stupidity. In that sense, it is no different than auto insurance. The purpose is to not have the rest of us pay for the foolishness of others. Now, if you can come up with a way that all or most will accept in which an critically injuryed or ill person would not be treated because they can't pay, then there might be an argument not to have mandatory insurance coverage. While I firmly believe a public option would have served us better than this deal with thte insurance cmpanies, once we removed the that superior option, this really was the best remaining choice.
    Thank ya for the birthday wish.

    For failuring to have health insurance the IRS will enforce the fines for not having it. Since this is the IRS, I do not have a lot of faith in them to not prosecute those for failing to pay their taxes under criminal statutes. If you're alive the federal government said that you have to have health insurance just for living here. I see no delegation of power in the Constitution for the government to do this. Also, the health care bill will place an additional burden on the poor by mandating that they spend a minimum of 16% of their annual income for health insurance. These people are living paycheck to paycheck and that 16% will mean many of them will be on welfare which further places a drain on the government.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Thank ya for the birthday wish.

    For failuring to have health insurance the IRS will enforce the fines for not having it. Since this is the IRS, I do not have a lot of faith in them to not prosecute those for failing to pay their taxes under criminal statutes. If you're alive the federal government said that you have to have health insurance just for living here. I see no delegation of power in the Constitution for the government to do this. Also, the health care bill will place an additional burden on the poor by mandating that they spend a minimum of 16% of their annual income for health insurance. These people are living paycheck to paycheck and that 16% will mean many of them will be on welfare which further places a drain on the government.
    no, the being alive spin is just that, spin. The reason is to protect the rest of us. Again, if you can show that a person can be critically injuryed or ill and not be treated when they can't pay, the objection might hold water. But just as an auto vehicle driver can't assure he won't have an accident, we can't assure we won't be critically injuryed or ill. The premise is the same. The only difference being it is easier to aviod driving or owning an auto mobile than it is to avoid being critically injuryed or ill.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    no, the being alive spin is just that, spin. The reason is to protect the rest of us. Again, if you can show that a person can be critically injuryed or ill and not be treated when they can't pay, the objection might hold water. But just as an auto vehicle driver can't assure he won't have an accident, we can't assure we won't be critically injuryed or ill. The premise is the same. The only difference being it is easier to aviod driving or owning an auto mobile than it is to avoid being critically injuryed or ill.
    Invalid comparison logical fallacy since car insurance is not health insurance. With car insurance you have a choice to not own a car and not buy insurance. With health insurance you must buy it because you are alive.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Invalid comparison logical fallacy since car insurance is not health insurance. With car insurance you have a choice to not own a car and not buy insurance. With health insurance you must buy it because you are alive.
    No, not invalid. While there are some minor differences, the premise is the same. Both are mandatory because they want to save those not irresponsible and reckless from paying for the mistakes of those who are irresponsible and reckless. In this respect, they are alike.

    And if you read my entire response, you will noticed I mention the difference concerning owning a car:

    The premise is the same. The only difference being it is easier to avoid driving or owning an auto mobile than it is to avoid being critically injuryed or ill.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, not invalid. While there are some minor differences, the premise is the same. Both are mandatory because they want to save those not irresponsible and reckless from paying for the mistakes of those who are irresponsible and reckless. In this respect, they are alike.

    And if you read my entire response, you will noticed I mention the difference concerning owning a car:
    Your statement is incorrect since it should read, "The premise is the same. The only difference being it is easier to avoid driving or owning an automobile than it is to being alive and forced to buy health insurance."

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Your statement is incorrect since it should read, "The premise is the same. The only difference being it is easier to avoid driving or owning an automobile than it is to being alive and forced to buy health insurance."
    No, because you don't have to buy because you're alive. That simply isn't the reasoning.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: 3M Co. will drop retirees from health plans, steer to Medicare

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Your statement is incorrect since it should read, "The premise is the same. The only difference being it is easier to avoid driving or owning an automobile than it is to being alive and forced to buy health insurance."
    Doctors are forced to provide assistance to people regardless of whether they have insurance. That is one of the reasons healthcare costs are increasing, people use the ER as a general practitioners office due to lack of insurance. Thus, is it not fair to somewhat protect these doctors and require people to buy even some minimal amount of coverage to insure that doctors are compensated something for their work?

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