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Census finds record gap between rich and poor

More spacificly he wants a consumption tax. Which is silly. He knows its a regressive tax and does not care. He wants to keep more and have those that are just making it pay more. Lumping anyone who is not in the top 1% as lazy.

you are lying about my position and you are lying about being a libertarian. libertarians have no use for progressive taxes
 
we had that before income taxes and the country was quite well

what comes off as greedy is people saying the rich had a duty to fund them

I say that those who vote up the taxes on the rich don't pay enough taxes themselves.

everyone should suffer when taxes are increased

and you again are a fraudulent libertarian, you are more a communitarian

We have never had this much debt before. Prior to the 16th our income was enough. Now we owe, I dont want to even know how much, and we need to pay it back. A consumption tax will not fix this. The poor dont have it and the middle class is going broke. The rich are the only ones with any money left. That is because the government has been purchased by corporations and the rich.

Your statement on everyone suffering:::
Everyone but the rich seam to be suffering. Thats why everyone is screaming for them to pay more. Over the last hundred years there has never been such a long strech of time with taxes this low for the upper income groups. Its not realistic to keep this up.

I am a true and loyal libertarian. I want a small responsible government where we dont have to have these conversations. Republicans and Democrats are both to blame for this issue. If we sent representatives to DC without them getting there by being paid for we would be much better off.
 
We have never had this much debt before. Prior to the 16th our income was enough. Now we owe, I dont want to even know how much, and we need to pay it back. A consumption tax will not fix this. The poor dont have it and the middle class is going broke. The rich are the only ones with any money left. That is because the government has been purchased by corporations and the rich.

Your statement on everyone suffering:::
Everyone but the rich seam to be suffering. Thats why everyone is screaming for them to pay more. Over the last hundred years there has never been such a long strech of time with taxes this low for the upper income groups. Its not realistic to keep this up.

I am a true and loyal libertarian. I want a small responsible government where we dont have to have these conversations. Republicans and Democrats are both to blame for this issue. If we sent representatives to DC without them getting there by being paid for we would be much better off.

why should the rich suffer? taxes are too high on the rich. half the income goes to taxes and they GET NOTHING ADDITIONAL IN DIRECT BENEFITS IN RETURN

what's wrong with regressive taxes. seriously, all other costs are regressive.

you don't seem to understand that not making those who use most of the direct services pay enough for them is why those costs expand

its easier to tell the masses that others will be taxed to pay for their goodies


the first thing we have to do is start weaning people off of unconstitutional spending

we did fine without an income tax for years

the New Deal screwed the pooch
 
you are lying about my position and you are lying about being a libertarian. libertarians have no use for progressive taxes

You have stated repeatedly that you want a consumption tax, that the CREAM RISES to the top, and that your sick of paying everyones way. How is that lying.

I am a Libertarian. The issue is that the Republicans and Democrats have put us in a situation where we have to much for a simple fix. I dont want to tax the rich, I dont want a have a huge government telling me how to live my life. But the bottom line is we are in this mess because in large part people got gready. All of America suffered because of a few who got to selfish and took to much. You know what that did. Take a look at recent SEC laws. Take a look at things like consumer protection rights that are getting ready to swing waaay out of wack.

I was told once that life often times swings like a pendulum. That when something gets to far out of wack it will swing the other way. It passes neutral and goes the other way. I am involved in medical and financial law on a regular basis. I can tell you that a strom is brewing. I blame big business and greedy people.
 
You have stated repeatedly that you want a consumption tax, that the CREAM RISES to the top, and that your sick of paying everyones way. How is that lying.

I am a Libertarian. The issue is that the Republicans and Democrats have put us in a situation where we have to much for a simple fix. I dont want to tax the rich, I dont want a have a huge government telling me how to live my life. But the bottom line is we are in this mess because in large part people got gready. All of America suffered because of a few who got to selfish and took to much. You know what that did. Take a look at recent SEC laws. Take a look at things like consumer protection rights that are getting ready to swing waaay out of wack.

I was told once that life often times swings like a pendulum. That when something gets to far out of wack it will swing the other way. It passes neutral and goes the other way. I am involved in medical and financial law on a regular basis. I can tell you that a strom is brewing. I blame big business and greedy people.

libertarians support freedom and that includes the right of people to be greedy. the storm will be the wealthy moving away so they cannot be looted and the dependents having less and less money they can vote away.

jacking up taxes will only mean the party that gains power through handouts will keep it up
 
why should the rich suffer? taxes are too high on the rich. half the income goes to taxes and they GET NOTHING ADDITIONAL IN DIRECT BENEFITS IN RETURN

what's wrong with regressive taxes. seriously, all other costs are regressive.

you don't seem to understand that not making those who use most of the direct services pay enough for them is why those costs expand

its easier to tell the masses that others will be taxed to pay for their goodies


the first thing we have to do is start weaning people off of unconstitutional spending

we did fine without an income tax for years

the New Deal screwed the pooch

Everyone one is suffering, why should the rich not suffer with everyone else. Taxes are not to high on the rich. They are in fact at the lowest level in 100 years. Nobody pays half of their income. The highest tax bracket is 35%.

The regressive tax issue. Please think about this. If a family is spending 80% or more on food, shelter and simple stuff to live how do you expect them to go from 10-15 taxes to paying the 20% you propose. How do THEY ever have a chance to make it?

I disagree with the expanding market look at what AVT has done in europe. Most economists agree that AVT is a major reason for the european economic recession.

100% agree with cutting spending

"we did fine without an income tax for years" Yes but we did not owe 13 plus TRILLION

The pooch has had many litters.
 
libertarians support freedom and that includes the right of people to be greedy. the storm will be the wealthy moving away so they cannot be looted and the dependents having less and less money they can vote away.

jacking up taxes will only mean the party that gains power through handouts will keep it up

As far as Im concerned you should be able to get stupid filthy rich. We all should. Thats my issue. Its a lie. The government has made big corps and a small group very very rich. Not everyone was given the chance to play and thats the issue. If thats not you then you are paying for thier mistake. Taxes will go up and the rich will pay more. Give it 5 years and I can see the top tax bracket up to or over 40%.
 
Everyone one is suffering, why should the rich not suffer with everyone else. Taxes are not to high on the rich. They are in fact at the lowest level in 100 years. Nobody pays half of their income. The highest tax bracket is 35%.

The regressive tax issue. Please think about this. If a family is spending 80% or more on food, shelter and simple stuff to live how do you expect them to go from 10-15 taxes to paying the 20% you propose. How do THEY ever have a chance to make it?

I disagree with the expanding market look at what AVT has done in europe. Most economists agree that AVT is a major reason for the european economic recession.

100% agree with cutting spending

"we did fine without an income tax for years" Yes but we did not owe 13 plus TRILLION

The pooch has had many litters.

people should pay the same rate. you are not in a position to say if taxes are not too high on the rich

you are liar, I pay over half of my income in taxes when you count sales taxes, property taxes, gasoline taxes income taxes, state income taxes, and all the taxes that are built into stuff I buy. Plus I expect a massive estate tax when I die despite careful estate planning

but I am happy to have a flat tax instead, anything to prevent the panderers from buying votes by promising the parasite class and others that they will get what they want at others' expense.

we owe 13 million because politicians pander to the majority and FDR's judges raped the tenth amendment
 
As far as Im concerned you should be able to get stupid filthy rich. We all should. Thats my issue. Its a lie. The government has made big corps and a small group very very rich. Not everyone was given the chance to play and thats the issue. If thats not you then you are paying for thier mistake. Taxes will go up and the rich will pay more. Give it 5 years and I can see the top tax bracket up to or over 40%.

and more and more will leave the USA leaving the sucklers of the public teat starving
 
Moderator's Warning:
Folks, let's keep things civil and stick to the topic. The topic is not "you're a liar", "no you are".
 
and more and more will leave the USA leaving the sucklers of the public teat starving

So be it. If the only thing stopping people from leaving the USA is a higher tax bracket then good riddance. I hope a law is passed to keep them out once they leave. That is not the kind of citizen we need. For me and my family who has been here since the revolutionary war, we will stay and proudly do everything we can to make this a great country again.
 
people should pay the same rate. you are not in a position to say if taxes are not too high on the rich

you are liar, I pay over half of my income in taxes when you count sales taxes, property taxes, gasoline taxes income taxes, state income taxes, and all the taxes that are built into stuff I buy. Plus I expect a massive estate tax when I die despite careful estate planning

but I am happy to have a flat tax instead, anything to prevent the panderers from buying votes by promising the parasite class and others that they will get what they want at others' expense.

we owe 13 million because politicians pander to the majority and FDR's judges raped the tenth amendment

Your a lawyer who is wants to deny me my 1st amendment rights.

You live in a state that requires high state sales tax, property tax, state income tax and um your consumption based gasoline tax. MOVE

A flat tax will never happen. You can be happy or sad about it but it will never happen. Mostly because its silly.

We owe 13 TRILLION (not a slight on your million, I understood what you ment) because big business was allowed to take it. Huge tax breaks for monsanto, exxon, AOB while they make billions. Its not that I dont want everyone to have the chance to get rich. I dont want the odds stacked so everyone cant.
 
So be it. If the only thing stopping people from leaving the USA is a higher tax bracket then good riddance. I hope a law is passed to keep them out once they leave. That is not the kind of citizen we need. For me and my family who has been here since the revolutionary war, we will stay and proudly do everything we can to make this a great country again.

you really want to parasitize the rich apparently. what we need is to get rid of the ability of a majority to vote up the taxes of the minority

it also gives congress way too much power

a person's first duty is to take care of himself and his family, not to suffer theft by the envious
 
Your a lawyer who is wants to deny me my 1st amendment rights.

You live in a state that requires high state sales tax, property tax, state income tax and um your consumption based gasoline tax. MOVE

A flat tax will never happen. You can be happy or sad about it but it will never happen. Mostly because its silly.

We owe 13 TRILLION (not a slight on your million, I understood what you ment) because big business was allowed to take it. Huge tax breaks for monsanto, exxon, AOB while they make billions. Its not that I dont want everyone to have the chance to get rich. I dont want the odds stacked so everyone cant.

LOL that's funny but stop the libertarian charade.

right now the high progressive taxes and the death tax is what keeps hard working people from getting rich and cements the position of the uberwealthy where they are

get rid of a progressive income tax and a death tax and more will be able to make it to the top
 
Mises makes a good point in Socialism. If it is based on socialist ideals, then just because it is not the swift enactment of socialism does not mean that it is not in and of itself socialistic.

No, that wasn't a good point. Sorry. Just as there are few pruely socialistic governments in the world, they are few if any pruely capitalistic governments in the world. One reason for this is that both have problems that lead lead countries to have to mix the two economic forms. This doesn't make any country a socialist country. And it is a lie to say it does. From the beginnings of this country it has been clear that capitalism needed some form of regulation, and adjustments have been made ever since, regardless of party BTW. But, politicians have used the tactic of scaring people about socialism for nearly as long as the country has been in existence. All the while both parties have done exactly the same in terms of policy on this issue. No one has led us to a completely capitalistic society.

The tactic is old, unoriginal and dishonest. There's no real way around that.
 
I don't see any proof and if you are smart enough to call my assumptions moronic why is it that you are the one who needs a socialist government and I don't.
Your response explains a lot. We don't have a socialist government, cons don't even know the definition of socialist. The Military is a socialist as you can get, so tell me, do you hate the Military?

you lie out of your six with the crap that the rich "benefit more" In reality the government benefits from the rich not the other way around. its the poor who benefit from the government from the stuff the rich have taken by the government.
I can't help it if you have bought into the crap your leaders have been feeding you, that the poor are draining the government, when it is the rich that keep sucking the life out of the middle-class. I hope you are one on the top, because if your party gets control again, you might be able to feel the squeeze.

I didn't understand your blather "its the poor who benefit from the government from the stuff the rich have taken by the government" - is that even a sentence?



only a COMPLETE MORON would claim that tax cuts are gifts to the rich by the government
Only a complete moron would think that the expiration of the tax cuts is going to make a difference to the rich and that somehow all that money that conservatives erroneously think has been trickling down, is going to quit trickling down.
It never has trickled down, it never will!
 
LOL that's funny but stop the libertarian charade.

right now the high progressive taxes and the death tax is what keeps hard working people from getting rich and cements the position of the uberwealthy where they are

get rid of a progressive income tax and a death tax and more will be able to make it to the top

Im going to tell a lawyer joke every time you bring up me not beinig a libertarian.

Whats the difference between a Lawyer and a skunk. . .People try not to hit a skunk when it crosses the street.

So now your saying that taxes that increase as you make more is what is keeping people from having it. . . um thats backwards.

While I dont agree that there should even be a death tax, I dont see how you can say that effects anyone other than the wealthy from passing this on.
 
Well **** the prison benefits the poor. Most people in prison are not wealthy and they get a cot plus three square aday! :mrgreen:

I'm sure they would gladly trade places with a homeless person.
 
your credibility does not exist with me so your claims have no merit to me

I realize that socialists try to pretend that this country isn't socialist enough

but this country oozes the scum of socialism

Well, then move.
 
First, I showed the wealthy do get more. And second, I don't whine because others pay less than I do, so why should you whine because you pay more (while getting more-assuming you are rich).

Maybe because conservatives have become the biggest baby whiners ever?
 
you really want to parasitize the rich apparently. what we need is to get rid of the ability of a majority to vote up the taxes of the minority

it also gives congress way too much power

a person's first duty is to take care of himself and his family, not to suffer theft by the envious

No. I do find it offencive that people would leave this country if taxes go up. That the only thing this country has to offer is lower taxes. All I can think of is the people who gave thier lives to protect this country. Patriots who gave the ultimate sacrifice not for personal gain but for freedom. Freedom that gave these people the ability to aquired great wealth. So now that they have to give some back they say "Oh this is unfair I am leaving"

Good, I want them to leave. They have just spit on me, my family and my country. Good riddance. To me they are cowards and cry babys and we are better off without them.
 
Do you think you could say why that is so instead of just saying that it is? I mean, the rich do benefit more, but they pay the same proportion of their income, so a higher total amount. Mind proving why that is not enough?

Okay, here's a good article as to why the rich should pay more.

Super Taxes for the Super Rich

Some of what he says:

Surowiecki proposes not just reinstituting pre-Bush era tax rates on the rich, but going a step further and creating a super tax bracket for those making the mega bucks. Say 50% for those making $10 million or more. At a time when Washington and voters, if not the market, are growing increasingly worried about the deficit, I think the idea of a super tax rate for the super rich makes a lot of sense. Here's why:
First of all, as Suroweicki points out, the rich have been getting richer. And income inequality when it gets to extremes can add to all types of social ills like reducing the quality of healthcare and education.

Between 2002 and 2007, for instance, the bottom ninety-nine per cent of incomes grew 1.3 per cent a year in real terms—while the incomes of the top one per cent grew ten per cent a year. That one per cent accounted for two-thirds of all income growth in those years. People in the ninety-fifth to the ninety-ninth percentiles of income have represented a fairly constant share of the national income for twenty-five years now. But in that period the top one per cent has seen its share of national income double; in 2007, it captured twenty-three per cent of the nation's total income. Even within the top one per cent, income is getting more concentrated: the top 0.1 per cent of earners have seen their share of national income triple over the same period. All by themselves, they now earn as much as the bottom hundred and twenty million people. So at the same time that the rich have been pulling away from the middle class, the very rich have been pulling away from the pretty rich, and the very, very rich have been pulling away from the very rich.
While I know this is a little bit of a third rail, if taxes can redistribute some of that wealth at the very high end of the income ladder to social programs that end up improving education or paying for healthcare reform or creating jobs, that would be a good thing. Again, I know people hate this idea of redistributing wealth, but consider what that money is doing now. It is adding to our economic problems not helping. For the most part it is not money being spent and trickling down. Instead it just adds to that global pool of money that sloshes around our financial markets and creates all types of bubbles. So before that money was driving up the cost of houses. Now it is creating bubbles in gold and cotton and, if you believe it, Treasury bonds that could lead to other financial collapses. So not only does all that money concentrated with the rich not help us, it actually makes our economy prone to booms and busts, and less stable.


As for the ultra wealthy paying the same proportion on taxes, that is just not true.

Warren Buffett, world's second richest man and leading American entrepreneur, testified he paid a 16.5 percent federal tax rate on his billions while middle class workers at his company paid 25 percent. I include an illustration below from MoveOn.org that highlights Warren's point: tax loopholes and laws allow millionaires to pay as little as 15 percent while middle class workers pay 25 - 28 percent. Mr. Buffett added recently:
There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war and we're winning.

America's Wealthy Wage War Against the Middle Class

But Kyl does work hard for his friends. He would like to repeal the estate tax, so the country's millionaires and billionaires wouldn't ever have to pay their fair share of the tax burden. Most of them pay almost no taxes during their lifetimes--especially if their wealth is inherited and most of their income is financial. They get preferential rates for the taxes they do pay, they devise all kinds of scheme to defer payment (using loans to monetize assets that need not be sold til after death), and yet are the primary beneficiaries of the governmental stability and economy that ordinary folks' taxes pay for. The Republicans set the estate tax to return in 2011 at the pre-Bush tax cut rates and exemption levels.
ataxingmatter: Estate Tax--Kyl continues working for the ultra wealthy
 
why should the rich suffer? taxes are too high on the rich. half the income goes to taxes and they GET NOTHING ADDITIONAL IN DIRECT BENEFITS IN RETURN
Why should the rich suffer? That has got to be the stupidest comment ever. If they let the tax cuts on the super rich expire, do you really believe the super rich are going to suffer? Were they suffering before Bush decided to give them the tax breaks.

Conservatives make me sick with their idolatry of the very rich. Unless you are one of them, which you would probably not be wasting your time posting on a political forum, I really don't know what you gain from coddling the super rich. What exactly do you gain from the rich not paying more. The satisfaction of saying that you don't envy the rich?

You prefer that our country continue to struggle. That more and more people end up on the streets? Conservatives thought $700 Billion was a lot of money when it was used to bail out the banks, the Stimulus Package that Obama signed was just slightly more and conservatives bitched that it was too much, but now $700 Billion will be added to deficit if tax cuts for the wealthy are extended and conservatives are not concerned? In fact they are passionate about allowing it? Why was $700 billion so much back then, but not now?

you don't seem to understand that not making those who use most of the direct services pay enough for them is why those costs expand

That is what we're trying to get across to the thick-headed. The ones who use most of the direct services of the government should pay more, and that ain't the poor, it is the ultra rich.

its easier to tell the masses that others will be taxed to pay for their goodies
What the rich have been doing and conservatives are willing to continue providing.


the first thing we have to do is start weaning people off of unconstitutional spending
we did fine without an income tax for years
the New Deal screwed the pooch

Yeah, we did fine without air-conditioning, color-tv, indoor plumbing and computers. I guess conservatives would love to go back to those days, too! Brilliant!
 
libertarians support freedom and that includes the right of people to be greedy. the storm will be the wealthy moving away so they cannot be looted and the dependents having less and less money they can vote away.

Let them go, see if they can find another country where they can pay lower taxes. I don't think they will be moving, they didn't move before Bush came along, why would they move now?

jacking up taxes will only mean the party that gains power through handouts will keep it up

I'm sure you mean the party that cares about the wellfare of the country as opposed to the party that coddles the rich and corporations even if they are sucking the life out of us. If conservatives were to take control it wouldn't take long before most of the middle class will be poor and homeless and the super rich will be super, super rich, and we'll be like Mexico with two classes - the very rich and the very poor, and those of us that end up very poor, we'll be illegally immigrating to Canada or somewhere else just to stay alive.
 
Oy vey.

No. I do find it offencive that people would leave this country if taxes go up. That the only thing this country has to offer is lower taxes. All I can think of is the people who gave thier lives to protect this country. Patriots who gave the ultimate sacrifice not for personal gain but for freedom. Freedom that gave these people the ability to aquired great wealth. So now that they have to give some back they say "Oh this is unfair I am leaving"
1. This country doesn't exactly have low taxes for those the wealthy. Today 250,000 a year qualifies you as "millionaires and billionaires".

2. Yes, people fought and died so we could be free people. Not to be manhandled by a foreign government and especially by our very own government.

3. Give back? The wealthy pay the brunt of the tax burden. They are overtaxed. The also give to charity. They give far more than they should. In the process government is killing the geese that lay the golden eggs; Jobs.

Good, I want them to leave. They have just spit on me, my family and my country. Good riddance. To me they are cowards and cry babys and we are better off without them.
a. You want them to leave? Some have and more will when government oversteps, and tramples the private sector. Today you don't have to "take it", you can pack up your fortune and leave. The beauty of modern mobility.

b. Spit on you? Seems you feel they owe you something? What is it that you want the government to steal from private individuals to pass on to you?

c. Cowards and crybabies... perhaps when you're old enough to run a business... you'll understand.

Sad stuff... class envy just oozes out of ender's post.

.
 
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