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Thread: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you really want to parasitize the rich apparently. what we need is to get rid of the ability of a majority to vote up the taxes of the minority

    it also gives congress way too much power

    a person's first duty is to take care of himself and his family, not to suffer theft by the envious
    No. I do find it offencive that people would leave this country if taxes go up. That the only thing this country has to offer is lower taxes. All I can think of is the people who gave thier lives to protect this country. Patriots who gave the ultimate sacrifice not for personal gain but for freedom. Freedom that gave these people the ability to aquired great wealth. So now that they have to give some back they say "Oh this is unfair I am leaving"

    Good, I want them to leave. They have just spit on me, my family and my country. Good riddance. To me they are cowards and cry babys and we are better off without them.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Do you think you could say why that is so instead of just saying that it is? I mean, the rich do benefit more, but they pay the same proportion of their income, so a higher total amount. Mind proving why that is not enough?
    Okay, here's a good article as to why the rich should pay more.

    Super Taxes for the Super Rich

    Some of what he says:

    Surowiecki proposes not just reinstituting pre-Bush era tax rates on the rich, but going a step further and creating a super tax bracket for those making the mega bucks. Say 50% for those making $10 million or more. At a time when Washington and voters, if not the market, are growing increasingly worried about the deficit, I think the idea of a super tax rate for the super rich makes a lot of sense. Here's why:
    First of all, as Suroweicki points out, the rich have been getting richer. And income inequality when it gets to extremes can add to all types of social ills like reducing the quality of healthcare and education.

    Between 2002 and 2007, for instance, the bottom ninety-nine per cent of incomes grew 1.3 per cent a year in real terms—while the incomes of the top one per cent grew ten per cent a year. That one per cent accounted for two-thirds of all income growth in those years. People in the ninety-fifth to the ninety-ninth percentiles of income have represented a fairly constant share of the national income for twenty-five years now. But in that period the top one per cent has seen its share of national income double; in 2007, it captured twenty-three per cent of the nation's total income. Even within the top one per cent, income is getting more concentrated: the top 0.1 per cent of earners have seen their share of national income triple over the same period. All by themselves, they now earn as much as the bottom hundred and twenty million people. So at the same time that the rich have been pulling away from the middle class, the very rich have been pulling away from the pretty rich, and the very, very rich have been pulling away from the very rich.
    While I know this is a little bit of a third rail, if taxes can redistribute some of that wealth at the very high end of the income ladder to social programs that end up improving education or paying for healthcare reform or creating jobs, that would be a good thing. Again, I know people hate this idea of redistributing wealth, but consider what that money is doing now. It is adding to our economic problems not helping. For the most part it is not money being spent and trickling down. Instead it just adds to that global pool of money that sloshes around our financial markets and creates all types of bubbles. So before that money was driving up the cost of houses. Now it is creating bubbles in gold and cotton and, if you believe it, Treasury bonds that could lead to other financial collapses. So not only does all that money concentrated with the rich not help us, it actually makes our economy prone to booms and busts, and less stable.


    As for the ultra wealthy paying the same proportion on taxes, that is just not true.

    Warren Buffett, world's second richest man and leading American entrepreneur, testified he paid a 16.5 percent federal tax rate on his billions while middle class workers at his company paid 25 percent. I include an illustration below from MoveOn.org that highlights Warren's point: tax loopholes and laws allow millionaires to pay as little as 15 percent while middle class workers pay 25 - 28 percent. Mr. Buffett added recently:
    There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war and we're winning.

    America's Wealthy Wage War Against the Middle Class

    But Kyl does work hard for his friends. He would like to repeal the estate tax, so the country's millionaires and billionaires wouldn't ever have to pay their fair share of the tax burden. Most of them pay almost no taxes during their lifetimes--especially if their wealth is inherited and most of their income is financial. They get preferential rates for the taxes they do pay, they devise all kinds of scheme to defer payment (using loans to monetize assets that need not be sold til after death), and yet are the primary beneficiaries of the governmental stability and economy that ordinary folks' taxes pay for. The Republicans set the estate tax to return in 2011 at the pre-Bush tax cut rates and exemption levels.
    ataxingmatter: Estate Tax--Kyl continues working for the ultra wealthy



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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why should the rich suffer? taxes are too high on the rich. half the income goes to taxes and they GET NOTHING ADDITIONAL IN DIRECT BENEFITS IN RETURN
    Why should the rich suffer? That has got to be the stupidest comment ever. If they let the tax cuts on the super rich expire, do you really believe the super rich are going to suffer? Were they suffering before Bush decided to give them the tax breaks.

    Conservatives make me sick with their idolatry of the very rich. Unless you are one of them, which you would probably not be wasting your time posting on a political forum, I really don't know what you gain from coddling the super rich. What exactly do you gain from the rich not paying more. The satisfaction of saying that you don't envy the rich?

    You prefer that our country continue to struggle. That more and more people end up on the streets? Conservatives thought $700 Billion was a lot of money when it was used to bail out the banks, the Stimulus Package that Obama signed was just slightly more and conservatives bitched that it was too much, but now $700 Billion will be added to deficit if tax cuts for the wealthy are extended and conservatives are not concerned? In fact they are passionate about allowing it? Why was $700 billion so much back then, but not now?

    you don't seem to understand that not making those who use most of the direct services pay enough for them is why those costs expand
    That is what we're trying to get across to the thick-headed. The ones who use most of the direct services of the government should pay more, and that ain't the poor, it is the ultra rich.

    its easier to tell the masses that others will be taxed to pay for their goodies
    What the rich have been doing and conservatives are willing to continue providing.


    the first thing we have to do is start weaning people off of unconstitutional spending
    we did fine without an income tax for years
    the New Deal screwed the pooch
    Yeah, we did fine without air-conditioning, color-tv, indoor plumbing and computers. I guess conservatives would love to go back to those days, too! Brilliant!



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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    libertarians support freedom and that includes the right of people to be greedy. the storm will be the wealthy moving away so they cannot be looted and the dependents having less and less money they can vote away.
    Let them go, see if they can find another country where they can pay lower taxes. I don't think they will be moving, they didn't move before Bush came along, why would they move now?

    jacking up taxes will only mean the party that gains power through handouts will keep it up
    I'm sure you mean the party that cares about the wellfare of the country as opposed to the party that coddles the rich and corporations even if they are sucking the life out of us. If conservatives were to take control it wouldn't take long before most of the middle class will be poor and homeless and the super rich will be super, super rich, and we'll be like Mexico with two classes - the very rich and the very poor, and those of us that end up very poor, we'll be illegally immigrating to Canada or somewhere else just to stay alive.



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
    --Adlai Stevenson, Politician





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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Oy vey.

    Quote Originally Posted by ender1 View Post
    No. I do find it offencive that people would leave this country if taxes go up. That the only thing this country has to offer is lower taxes. All I can think of is the people who gave thier lives to protect this country. Patriots who gave the ultimate sacrifice not for personal gain but for freedom. Freedom that gave these people the ability to aquired great wealth. So now that they have to give some back they say "Oh this is unfair I am leaving"
    1. This country doesn't exactly have low taxes for those the wealthy. Today 250,000 a year qualifies you as "millionaires and billionaires".

    2. Yes, people fought and died so we could be free people. Not to be manhandled by a foreign government and especially by our very own government.

    3. Give back? The wealthy pay the brunt of the tax burden. They are overtaxed. The also give to charity. They give far more than they should. In the process government is killing the geese that lay the golden eggs; Jobs.

    Good, I want them to leave. They have just spit on me, my family and my country. Good riddance. To me they are cowards and cry babys and we are better off without them.
    a. You want them to leave? Some have and more will when government oversteps, and tramples the private sector. Today you don't have to "take it", you can pack up your fortune and leave. The beauty of modern mobility.

    b. Spit on you? Seems you feel they owe you something? What is it that you want the government to steal from private individuals to pass on to you?

    c. Cowards and crybabies... perhaps when you're old enough to run a business... you'll understand.

    Sad stuff... class envy just oozes out of ender's post.

    .
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Record gap between rich and poor? Neo-liberal solution? Drive down wages so that the rich can have more money to pay out.
    "We may have destroyed this country, but we got rich doing it!" --The GOP
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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, that wasn't a good point. Sorry. Just as there are few pruely socialistic governments in the world, they are few if any pruely capitalistic governments in the world. One reason for this is that both have problems that lead lead countries to have to mix the two economic forms. This doesn't make any country a socialist country. And it is a lie to say it does.
    You're being disingenuous. I wasn't calling this country socialist. I was calling those programs socialist because their defense comes from socialist ideas.

    From the beginnings of this country it has been clear that capitalism needed some form of regulation
    Proof?

    and adjustments have been made ever since, regardless of party BTW. But, politicians have used the tactic of scaring people about socialism for nearly as long as the country has been in existence. All the while both parties have done exactly the same in terms of policy on this issue. No one has led us to a completely capitalistic society.

    The tactic is old, unoriginal and dishonest. There's no real way around that.
    I don't care that both parties have socialist leanings.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by ender1 View Post
    We have never had this much debt before. Prior to the 16th our income was enough. Now we owe, I dont want to even know how much, and we need to pay it back. A consumption tax will not fix this. The poor dont have it and the middle class is going broke. The rich are the only ones with any money left. That is because the government has been purchased by corporations and the rich.

    Your statement on everyone suffering:::
    Everyone but the rich seam to be suffering. Thats why everyone is screaming for them to pay more. Over the last hundred years there has never been such a long strech of time with taxes this low for the upper income groups. Its not realistic to keep this up.

    I am a true and loyal libertarian. I want a small responsible government where we dont have to have these conversations. Republicans and Democrats are both to blame for this issue. If we sent representatives to DC without them getting there by being paid for we would be much better off.
    He just wants a libertarian that shows arguments in favor of the current system as I usually do against the interventionists, but you don't hold back and you say that you don't defend this system either. It's a perfectly valid position.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you really want to parasitize the rich apparently. what we need is to get rid of the ability of a majority to vote up the taxes of the minority
    Big corporations have gotten rich because of sweetheart deals with the government. There's no point in denying that. Corruption is a disgusting habit in this country.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Okay, here's a good article as to why the rich should pay more.

    Super Taxes for the Super Rich

    Some of what he says:

    Surowiecki proposes not just reinstituting pre-Bush era tax rates on the rich, but going a step further and creating a super tax bracket for those making the mega bucks. Say 50% for those making $10 million or more. At a time when Washington and voters, if not the market, are growing increasingly worried about the deficit, I think the idea of a super tax rate for the super rich makes a lot of sense. Here's why:
    First of all, as Suroweicki points out, the rich have been getting richer. And income inequality when it gets to extremes can add to all types of social ills like reducing the quality of healthcare and education.

    Between 2002 and 2007, for instance, the bottom ninety-nine per cent of incomes grew 1.3 per cent a year in real terms—while the incomes of the top one per cent grew ten per cent a year. That one per cent accounted for two-thirds of all income growth in those years. People in the ninety-fifth to the ninety-ninth percentiles of income have represented a fairly constant share of the national income for twenty-five years now. But in that period the top one per cent has seen its share of national income double; in 2007, it captured twenty-three per cent of the nation's total income. Even within the top one per cent, income is getting more concentrated: the top 0.1 per cent of earners have seen their share of national income triple over the same period. All by themselves, they now earn as much as the bottom hundred and twenty million people. So at the same time that the rich have been pulling away from the middle class, the very rich have been pulling away from the pretty rich, and the very, very rich have been pulling away from the very rich.
    While I know this is a little bit of a third rail, if taxes can redistribute some of that wealth at the very high end of the income ladder to social programs that end up improving education or paying for healthcare reform or creating jobs, that would be a good thing. Again, I know people hate this idea of redistributing wealth, but consider what that money is doing now. It is adding to our economic problems not helping. For the most part it is not money being spent and trickling down. Instead it just adds to that global pool of money that sloshes around our financial markets and creates all types of bubbles. So before that money was driving up the cost of houses. Now it is creating bubbles in gold and cotton and, if you believe it, Treasury bonds that could lead to other financial collapses. So not only does all that money concentrated with the rich not help us, it actually makes our economy prone to booms and busts, and less stable.
    Doesn't prove that the rich use proportionally more of the "general wealth." This is another subject entirely.

    As for the ultra wealthy paying the same proportion on taxes, that is just not true.

    Warren Buffett, world's second richest man and leading American entrepreneur, testified he paid a 16.5 percent federal tax rate on his billions while middle class workers at his company paid 25 percent. I include an illustration below from MoveOn.org that highlights Warren's point: tax loopholes and laws allow millionaires to pay as little as 15 percent while middle class workers pay 25 - 28 percent. Mr. Buffett added recently:
    There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war and we're winning.

    America's Wealthy Wage War Against the Middle Class

    But Kyl does work hard for his friends. He would like to repeal the estate tax, so the country's millionaires and billionaires wouldn't ever have to pay their fair share of the tax burden. Most of them pay almost no taxes during their lifetimes--especially if their wealth is inherited and most of their income is financial. They get preferential rates for the taxes they do pay, they devise all kinds of scheme to defer payment (using loans to monetize assets that need not be sold til after death), and yet are the primary beneficiaries of the governmental stability and economy that ordinary folks' taxes pay for. The Republicans set the estate tax to return in 2011 at the pre-Bush tax cut rates and exemption levels.
    ataxingmatter: Estate Tax--Kyl continues working for the ultra wealthy
    Someone's never heard of anecdotal evidence. Show me the statistics if you want to prove anything.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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