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Thread: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Do you think you could say why that is so instead of just saying that it is? I mean, the rich do benefit more, but they pay the same proportion of their income, so a higher total amount. Mind proving why that is not enough?
    the rich don't benefit more-they get more benefits because they have more to trade for those benefits-and those benefits are not from the government but rather "indirect" benefits that are not based on tax revenue



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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Let's try to be a little original. We don't have a socialist government and there is no call for one.
    Opposition in principle to Socialism there is none. Today no influential party would dare openly to advocate Private Property in the Means of Production. The word "Capitalism" expresses, for our age, the sum of all evil. Even the opponents of Socialism are dominated by socialist ideas. In seeking to combat Socialism from the standpoint of their special class interest these opponents—the parties which particularly call themselves "bourgeois" or "peasant"—admit indirectly the validity of all the essentials of socialist thought. For if it is only possible to argue against the socialist programme that it endangers the particular interests of one part of humanity, one has really affirmed Socialism. If one complains that the system of economic and social organization which is based on private property in the means of production does not sufficiently consider the interests of the community, that it serves only the purposes of single strata, and that it limits productivity; and if therefore one demands with the supporters of the various "social-political" and "social-reform" movements, state interference in all fields of economic life, then one has fundamentally accepted the principle of the socialist programme. Or again, if one can only argue against socialism that the imperfections of human nature make its realization impossible, or that it is inexpedient under existing economic conditions to proceed at once to socialization, then one merely confesses that one has capitulated to socialist ideas. The nationalist, too, affirms socialism, and objects only to its Internationalism. He wishes to combine Socialism with the ideas of Imperialism and the struggle against foreign nations. He is a national, not an international socialist; but he, also, approves of the essential principles of Socialism. [2]

    The supporters of Socialism therefore are not confined to the Bolshevists and their friends outside Russia or to the members of the numerous socialist parties: all are socialists who consider the socialistic order of society economically and ethically superior to that based on private ownership of the means of production, even though they may try for one reason or another to make a temporary or permanent compromise between their socialistic ideal and the particular interests which they believe themselves to represent. If we define Socialism as broadly as this we see that the great majority of people are with Socialism today. Those who confess to the principles of Liberalism and who see the only possible form of economic society in an order based on private ownership of the means of production are few indeed.

    One striking fact illustrates the success of socialist ideas: namely, that we have grown accustomed to designating as Socialism only that policy which aims to enact the socialist programme immediately and completely, while we call by other names all the movements directed towards the same goal with more moderation and reserve, and even describe these as the enemies of Socialism. This can only have come about because few real opponents of Socialism are left. Even in England, the home of Liberalism, a nation which has grown rich and great through its liberal policy, people no longer know what Liberalism really means. The English "Liberals" of today are more or less moderate socialists.[3] In Germany, which never really knew Liberalism and which has become impotent and impoverished through its anti-liberal policy, people have hardly a conception of what Liberalism may be.
    Mises makes a good point in Socialism. If it is based on socialist ideals, then just because it is not the swift enactment of socialism does not mean that it is not in and of itself socialistic.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the rich don't benefit more-they get more benefits because they have more to trade for those benefits-and those benefits are not from the government but rather "indirect" benefits that are not based on tax revenue
    The rich benefit more from police protectionism. A robber is more likely to rob a rich man than a poor man. That said, I'm in favor of a flat tax, but no one has proven that direct proportionality is inadequate.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The rich benefit more from police protectionism. A robber is more likely to rob a rich man than a poor man. That said, I'm in favor of a flat tax, but no one has proven that direct proportionality is inadequate.
    you are wrong

    poor people are overwhelmingly the target of thieves, Rich people live in well protected homes with alarms and private security. We have dogs, and in my case black belts and people who constantly train with firearms. the poorest areas in cincinnati are the places that have by far the most police calls



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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The rich benefit more from police protectionism. A robber is more likely to rob a rich man than a poor man. That said, I'm in favor of a flat tax, but no one has proven that direct proportionality is inadequate.
    police protection is not paid for with federal income taxes for the most part. the FBI mostly deals with insitutional crime such as bank robbery and extortion of major insitutions.



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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    police protection is not paid for with federal income taxes for the most part. the FBI mostly deals with insitutional crime such as bank robbery and extortion of major insitutions.
    So the rich do get robbed?

    Look, what you're basically arguing is that the rich should be paying a lower proportion of their income because the poor get relatively more protection. I'm not arguing for a progressive tax, just saying that services provided a proportional to income, hence a flat tax. You're arguing for a regressive tax, in case you didn't realize it.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the rich don't benefit more-they get more benefits because they have more to trade for those benefits-and those benefits are not from the government but rather "indirect" benefits that are not based on tax revenue
    How about the fact that the rich live in a country that gives them the stability, opportunity and security to aquire that awsome wealth. Your also saying the bottom 99% dont work hard enough. Maybe people get upset because instead of being greatful for having a life where you earn fantastic wealth you complain. It just comes across gready, selfesh and uncaring.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So the rich do get robbed?

    Look, what you're basically arguing is that the rich should be paying a lower proportion of their income because the poor get relatively more protection. I'm not arguing for a progressive tax, just saying that services provided a proportional to income, hence a flat tax. You're arguing for a regressive tax, in case you didn't realize it.
    More spacificly he wants a consumption tax. Which is silly. He knows its a regressive tax and does not care. He wants to keep more and have those that are just making it pay more. Lumping anyone who is not in the top 1% as lazy.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So the rich do get robbed?

    Look, what you're basically arguing is that the rich should be paying a lower proportion of their income because the poor get relatively more protection. I'm not arguing for a progressive tax, just saying that services provided a proportional to income, hence a flat tax. You're arguing for a regressive tax, in case you didn't realize it.
    yeah I know-I want people to pay for what they use as the base line. life is regressive. I pay less of my income for a 20K car than most people or a cheeseburger but I get the same value. that is the starting point for government services as well

    but I understand there are people who through no fault of their own cannot pay their bills so others have to pay for them

    but the top 2% pay way too much and that is because of the progressive tax allows the many to shirk their duties and make others assume more of a burden

    I oppose that



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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by ender1 View Post
    How about the fact that the rich live in a country that gives them the stability, opportunity and security to aquire that awsome wealth. Your also saying the bottom 99% dont work hard enough. Maybe people get upset because instead of being greatful for having a life where you earn fantastic wealth you complain. It just comes across gready, selfesh and uncaring.
    we had that before income taxes and the country was quite well

    what comes off as greedy is people saying the rich had a duty to fund them

    I say that those who vote up the taxes on the rich don't pay enough taxes themselves.

    everyone should suffer when taxes are increased

    and you again are a fraudulent libertarian, you are more a communitarian



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