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Thread: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Now, here are many of the problems with all of the income studies that have been brought forward.

    Volatility in income:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...post1058996184

    Immigration (which can lower income in a group even if everyone is improving):

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...post1058998855

    Retirement and household income (which also implies problems because of # of people working at home, divorces, etc.):

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...post1058998862

    And how about a video about how the middle class income is rising.

    reason.tv - Videos > Living Large (watch the whole video, it becomes more academic past the anecdotal beginning)

    And this is a whole book about income study problems:

    Amazon.com: Income and Wealth (Greenwood Guides to Business and Economics) (9780313336881): Alan Reynolds: Books: Reviews, Prices & more

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, I don't think you have. true many articles refer to the census, but others refer to other studies. Multiple sources looking at the same and different information reach the same conclusion. The middle class has shrunk and the divide between rich and poor is greater. And this can be true regardless of changing compositions.
    Different information, same methodology.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Now, here are many of the problems with all of the income studies that have been brought forward.

    Volatility in income:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...post1058996184

    Immigration (which can lower income in a group even if everyone is improving):

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...post1058998855

    Retirement and household income (which also implies problems because of # of people working at home, divorces, etc.):

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...post1058998862

    And how about a video about how the middle class income is rising.

    reason.tv - Videos > Living Large (watch the whole video, it becomes more academic past the anecdotal beginning)

    And this is a whole book about income study problems:

    Amazon.com: Income and Wealth (Greenwood Guides to Business and Economics) (9780313336881): Alan Reynolds: Books: Reviews, Prices & more
    I just think you're grasping at straws. I've listed this many and can lsit more that completely disagree with you. For some reason there seems to be resistence to dealing with problems, or even acknowleging them.

    In the United States, the richest 10 percent earn an average of $93,000 — the highest level in the OECD. The poorest 10 percent earn an average of $5,800 — about 20 percent lower than the OECD average.

    Gap growing between rich and poor - Business - World business - msnbc.com

    In a 20-year study of its member countries, the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development said wealthy households are not only widening the gap with the poor, but in countries such as the U.S., Canada and Germany they are also leaving middle-income earners further behind, with potentially ominous consequences if the global financial crisis sparks a long recession.

    Gap Between Rich And Poor Growing - CBS News

    The research, based on newly released figures from the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, shows that the top 1% of Americans - who earn an average of $862,000 each after tax (or $1.3m before tax) - receive more money than the 110m Americans in the bottom 40% of the income distribution, whose income averages $21,350 each year.
    BBC NEWS | Business | US inequality gap widens

    http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa..._richer_us.png

    Conclusion: Variations between states in the inequality of income were associated with increased mortality from several causes. The size of the gap between the wealthy and less well off—as distinct from the absolute standard of living enjoyed by the poor—seems to matter in its own right. The findings suggest that policies that deal with the growing inequities in income distribution may have an important impact on the health of the population.

    Income distribution and mortality: cross sectional ecological study of the Robin Hood index in the United States -- Kennedy et al. 312 (7037): 1004 -- bmj.com

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #694
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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I just think you're grasping at straws. I've listed this many and can lsit more that completely disagree with you. For some reason there seems to be resistence to dealing with problems, or even acknowleging them.

    In the United States, the richest 10 percent earn an average of $93,000 — the highest level in the OECD. The poorest 10 percent earn an average of $5,800 — about 20 percent lower than the OECD average.

    Gap growing between rich and poor - Business - World business - msnbc.com
    But that's at one time. In 1 year the composition of those groups changes drastically.

    In a 20-year study of its member countries, the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development said wealthy households are not only widening the gap with the poor, but in countries such as the U.S., Canada and Germany they are also leaving middle-income earners further behind, with potentially ominous consequences if the global financial crisis sparks a long recession.

    Gap Between Rich And Poor Growing - CBS News
    Again they're looking at income groups and not at actual people!

    The research, based on newly released figures from the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, shows that the top 1% of Americans - who earn an average of $862,000 each after tax (or $1.3m before tax) - receive more money than the 110m Americans in the bottom 40% of the income distribution, whose income averages $21,350 each year.
    BBC NEWS | Business | US inequality gap widens
    Again looking at 1 time and not realizing that the top 1% changes with time as does the bottom 40%.

    http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa..._richer_us.png

    Conclusion: Variations between states in the inequality of income were associated with increased mortality from several causes. The size of the gap between the wealthy and less well off—as distinct from the absolute standard of living enjoyed by the poor—seems to matter in its own right. The findings suggest that policies that deal with the growing inequities in income distribution may have an important impact on the health of the population.
    It's the same problem over and over again. What part of this aren't you getting?

    Great, now show me that the PEOPLE, not the CLASSES stay poor.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Actual people belong to income groups. Again, your making a distinction without a point. People make up classes. You have to talk about people in this case in terms of classes. We tend to group so we can see it better. But each grouping is made up of people. Some move up and some fall down, but if the measurement isconsistently, and has been, showing a growing gap, the problem is real and there.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Actual people belong to income groups. Again, your making a distinction without a point. People make up classes. You have to talk about people in this case in terms of classes. We tend to group so we can see it better. But each grouping is made up of people. Some move up and some fall down, but if the measurement isconsistently, and has been, showing a growing gap, the problem is real and there.
    Person A makes $10,000 in 2010. Person B makes $100,000 in 2010. Person A makes $250,000 in 2011. Person B makes $7500 in 2011.

    The rich class income grew by 150%! The poor class shrunk by 25%! The gap between rich and poor is widening!

    Total income: Person A: $10,000 + $250,000 = $260,000.
    Person B: $100,000 + $7500 = $107,500.

    There is no widening gap between rich and poor in this scenario. Please tell me you get it now becuase I can't simplify this anymore.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Person A makes $10,000 in 2010. Person B makes $100,000 in 2010. Person A makes $250,000 in 2011. Person B makes $7500 in 2011.

    The rich class income grew by 150%! The poor class shrunk by 25%! The gap between rich and poor is widening!

    Total income: Person A: $10,000 + $250,000 = $260,000.
    Person B: $100,000 + $7500 = $107,500.

    There is no widening gap between rich and poor in this scenario. Please tell me you get it now becuase I can't simplify this anymore.
    It wouldn't matter to the problem. First, that is unlikely to happen in any significant numbers, but regardless, if one falls into poverty and another moves up to being wealthy, the problem would still be there. And if more were in poverty, and even more in wealth, but fewer in the middle class, the and that substained itself, regardless of any hyoptethical movement, the problem would still be there.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It wouldn't matter to the problem. First, that is unlikely to happen in any significant numbers,
    But it does, as I've shown in many links already! Here they are again!

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...post1058996184

    Sowell on Economic Facts and Fallacies | EconTalk | Library of Economics and Liberty

    You still have refused to directly contradict these links.

    but regardless, if one falls into poverty and another moves up to being wealthy, the problem would still be there.
    How in the world do you figure?! That's no problem, that's progress!

    And if more were in poverty, and even more in wealth, but fewer in the middle class, the and that substained itself, regardless of any hyoptethical movement, the problem would still be there.
    Except when you look at good quintiles then the middle class isn't shrinking. In fact, they are just becoming richer!

    Explain this data:

    Overall $93,100 per household (+31%)
    Top income quartile $422,400 per household (+97%)
    Second income quartile $124,500 per household (+71%)
    Third income quartile $44,740 per household (0%)
    Bottom income quartile $9,960 per household (+5%)

    It seems obvious then to me that if you use static definitions of the middle class instead of looking at the actual middle class (from 75th percentile to 25th percentile) that of course you will see a shrinking middle class! It's MEDIAN INCOME HAS BEEN RISING WITH TIME!

    As for this data, realize that although the third income has remained stagnant, that these are not the same people in that group.

    To point out how significant this is, think about college students who make little money while in school (so classified as poor) but then get a job later and make a ton of money. Would you say that they were in poor while in school? Of course not! They took out loans banking on future success. They were never poor. They were not rich, but not poor.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I just think you're grasping at straws. I've listed this many and can lsit more that completely disagree with you. For some reason there seems to be resistence to dealing with problems, or even acknowleging them.

    In the United States, the richest 10 percent earn an average of $93,000 — the highest level in the OECD. The poorest 10 percent earn an average of $5,800 — about 20 percent lower than the OECD average.

    Gap growing between rich and poor - Business - World business - msnbc.com

    In a 20-year study of its member countries, the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development said wealthy households are not only widening the gap with the poor, but in countries such as the U.S., Canada and Germany they are also leaving middle-income earners further behind, with potentially ominous consequences if the global financial crisis sparks a long recession.

    Gap Between Rich And Poor Growing - CBS News

    The research, based on newly released figures from the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, shows that the top 1% of Americans - who earn an average of $862,000 each after tax (or $1.3m before tax) - receive more money than the 110m Americans in the bottom 40% of the income distribution, whose income averages $21,350 each year.
    BBC NEWS | Business | US inequality gap widens

    http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa..._richer_us.png

    Conclusion: Variations between states in the inequality of income were associated with increased mortality from several causes. The size of the gap between the wealthy and less well off—as distinct from the absolute standard of living enjoyed by the poor—seems to matter in its own right. The findings suggest that policies that deal with the growing inequities in income distribution may have an important impact on the health of the population.

    Income distribution and mortality: cross sectional ecological study of the Robin Hood index in the United States -- Kennedy et al. 312 (7037): 1004 -- bmj.com
    in any form of competition, the longer the competition lasts the more the most skilled participants win and the untalented lose



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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    in any form of competition, the longer the competition lasts the more the most skilled participants win and the untalented lose
    What about Rocky?

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