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Thread: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Then why are the "facts" that follow people and not classes so hard to find? Do those data not print the pretty picture that you want? Wealth changes hands, it's not monopolized, it's earned. I've shown that the problem of class composition is a large one, so you might want to actually try finding some data that doesn't resort to that fallacy.
    People belong to classes. We classify all the time. You're making a distinction without a point. And no, wealth doesn't change hands that quickly or often. We're not jumping from the middle class to extrmely wealthy and back again like a ping pong match. And the poor are certainly not switiching with either that quickly. You have not accurately identified any fallacy in the data. That's the point I keep trying to get across to you.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    And they're not as wealthy. So which is better? I can't tell you and you can't tell me without introducing arbitrary value judgments. Use a model that is completely objective and then we can talk. Until then, neither of us can prove anything to the other about which country is just plain better.



    Let's not be obtuse. I never claimed that we were the best in all respects, and the only reason you imply that I believe that is to set up a strawman. We are horrific when it comes to our tax code. Seriously, we're one of the worst countries in the world. in that regard.

    The top 1% is not a permanent, ruling class. But nice try there.
    No we aren't. See.....

    The United States raises significantly lower tax revenues as a percentage of gross domestic product than do most other countries in the OECD.
    The U.S. Tax Burden Is Low Relative to Other OECD Countries


    US tax bite smaller than other nations' - CSMonitor.com

    The truth is that the U.S. is a relatively low-tax country no matter how you slice the data.Tax Tea Party Time? - Forbes.com


    People EARN income, it is not DISTRIBUTED. Learn the difference.
    People who have to work EARN their income with their labor. But people who live off dividends and capital gains get DISTRIBUTIONS and do not "earn" their income with their labor. Learn the difference.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Forty-seven House Democrats broke with Democratic leaders Tuesday to call for an extension of current capital gains and dividends tax rates for the wealthy.

    In a letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, the Democrats echoed many of the arguments that Republicans have made in urging extension of all the Bush tax cuts, which are due to expire Jan. 1.
    Dem letter: Keep tax cuts for rich - John Maggs - POLITICO.com

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    No we aren't. See.....

    The United States raises significantly lower tax revenues as a percentage of gross domestic product than do most other countries in the OECD.
    The U.S. Tax Burden Is Low Relative to Other OECD Countries


    US tax bite smaller than other nations' - CSMonitor.com

    The truth is that the U.S. is a relatively low-tax country no matter how you slice the data.Tax Tea Party Time? - Forbes.com
    I wasn't talking about tax rate, I'm talking about tax code. Figure it out.


    People who have to work EARN their income with their labor. But people who live off dividends and capital gains get DISTRIBUTIONS and do not "earn" their income with their labor. Learn the difference.
    When you risk money you shouldn't get something when it was a good investment?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    People belong to classes. We classify all the time. You're making a distinction without a point. And no, wealth doesn't change hands that quickly or often. We're not jumping from the middle class to extrmely wealthy and back again like a ping pong match. And the poor are certainly not switiching with either that quickly. You have not accurately identified any fallacy in the data. That's the point I keep trying to get across to you.
    I can see you ignored my post then. Let me show it to you again.

    Sowell on Economic Facts and Fallacies | EconTalk | Library of Economics and Liberty

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Sowell
    Intro. Economic Facts and Fallacies: Income distribution. True or false: U.S. standard of living is about the same now as 30 years ago. False. Consumption has risen substantially over that period. Reasons why people claim it has not gone up: use statistics on household income. But households have been declining in size over time, and also differ across income brackets. Individual income always means one person's income. Over about 30 years, average household income rose only by 6%, but over that same period, per capita income rose by 51%. More meaningful figure. Failure to compare apples to apples in many statistical analyses. Today, not only fewer children per household but also more divorces. Top 20% of the household distribution has twice as many people as the bottom 20%, seems impossible. 39 million people in bottom 20% of households vs. 64 million in the top 20% of households, so household size is very different. Quintiles don't contain the same number of people. Role of prices, deflating nominal income variables. If you inaccurately measure inflation you will not get reasonable results. List of commodities that are tracked in price over time misses the effect of new commodities. But new commodities start off expensive and over time see a price reduction. If you include those commodities only after their prices come down, you don't measure the price decline. Video Cassette Recorders (VCRs) are classic example.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I wasn't talking about tax rate, I'm talking about tax code. Figure it out.
    Why don't you tell me what you meant by tax code instead? That way I know what you're talking about.




    When you risk money you shouldn't get something when it was a good investment?
    That wasn't your claim. You said, "people EARN income, it is not DISTRIBUTED." I corrected you by showing that people do get income from "DISTRIBUTIONS" that they do not EARN with their LABOR.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Why don't you tell me what you meant by tax code instead? That way I know what you're talking about.
    Maybe because he did say tax code.

    We are horrific when it comes to our tax code.
    I like Mongolia's tax code. It's only 11 pages long and very easy to understand.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Why don't you tell me what you meant by tax code instead? That way I know what you're talking about.
    Tax laws, the code that tells people how to pay taxes.

    That wasn't your claim. You said, "people EARN income, it is not DISTRIBUTED." I corrected you by showing that people do get income from "DISTRIBUTIONS" that they do not EARN with their LABOR.
    So when I take a risk by investing money and it pays off, I didn't earn it? Seems like I earn it for providing the means to do some productive work.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    why should anyone take THE RISK of investing his or her surplus income if there's diminshed opportunity of it returning?

    that's what investors TODAY are asking themselves, reportedly, to the tune of 1.8 trillion dollars

    it's a natural question

    damn that nature, again, it keeps getting in the way of utopia

    we really need to do something about it...

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Tax laws, the code that tells people how to pay taxes.
    Okay, so let me get this straight, the arguement was that, "it's impossible to say with any certainty that one country just is better than the other." But, "many other countries have done far better than we have in some respects" and then you said, "we are horrific when it comes to our tax code. Seriously, we're one of the worst countries in the world. in that regard."

    I fail to see what our tax code has to do with the premise that we are doing any better or worse than other countries, especially considering we still pay less taxes than most other countries and for the taxes we do pay, we don't get our money's worth. In short, the tax code, "the code that tells people how to pay taxes" has absolutely nothing to do with how better or worse off a country is. That would be like saying the directions on the package determines how good the product is instead of the materials or the cost of the product.


    So when I take a risk by investing money and it pays off, I didn't earn it? Seems like I earn it for providing the means to do some productive work.
    You don't earn income distributions in the same way you earn a wage. One involves the exchange of labor, the other simply involves the exchange of money. You've heard the old adage, You have to have money, to make money. "Making money" from dividends is not the same as "earning money" from doing a full day of labor.
    Last edited by Moot; 10-19-10 at 08:13 PM.

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