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Thread: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    nope-but I wouldn't expect a non litigator to understand that

    by not answering a question you often prove my points more than you would by answering it.
    Or make posing the question seem absurd.
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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Or make posing the question seem absurd.
    to the uneducated perhaps



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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Your links post a few very short paragraphs and don't give us much in detail, so I can make no assumptions based on them. hence, I know very little about your source. Your claim, that we started with, that there are people sitting wealthy, and thus skew the satisditcs, meaning more people are sitting in the middle than noted, doesn't hold up as any sitting with money and not working are too small a number to matter.

    Dropping below a million wouldn't invalidate the gap either, because they don't likely drop from millionare status to poverty or even middle class. 900,000 a year isn't middle class either.

    Agian, many different people and groups have looked and studied this and report the same gap. I don't see anything in your links to dispute this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Sowell
    Desperate efforts to depict all the prosperity and progress in the U.S. as being monopolized by "the rich" have led to statistical mumbo jumbo, such as comparing the changing ratios between statistical categories over time and ignoring the fact that most people move from one category to another over the years.

    Studies that follow individuals over time show the exact opposite. That is, most of the working people in the bottom fifth of the income distribution rise into the top half, and the rate of increase of their incomes is greater than that of most of the people initially in the top fifth.

    Those individuals in the top 1 percent, as of a given time, actually have an absolute decline in income over time. As they drop out of the top 1 percent, they are replaced by others, so the statistical category can be doing great, while the flesh-and- blood people who pass in and out of that category are by no means gaining on those further down the income distribution.
    Thomas Sowell: What income statistics really say about the U.S. | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Opinion: Viewpoints

    And a podcast you should probably listen to.

    Sowell on Economic Facts and Fallacies | EconTalk | Library of Economics and Liberty

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Sowell
    Intro. Economic Facts and Fallacies: Income distribution. True or false: U.S. standard of living is about the same now as 30 years ago. False. Consumption has risen substantially over that period. Reasons why people claim it has not gone up: use statistics on household income. But households have been declining in size over time, and also differ across income brackets. Individual income always means one person's income. Over about 30 years, average household income rose only by 6%, but over that same period, per capita income rose by 51%. More meaningful figure. Failure to compare apples to apples in many statistical analyses. Today, not only fewer children per household but also more divorces. Top 20% of the household distribution has twice as many people as the bottom 20%, seems impossible. 39 million people in bottom 20% of households vs. 64 million in the top 20% of households, so household size is very different. Quintiles don't contain the same number of people. Role of prices, deflating nominal income variables. If you inaccurately measure inflation you will not get reasonable results. List of commodities that are tracked in price over time misses the effect of new commodities. But new commodities start off expensive and over time see a price reduction. If you include those commodities only after their prices come down, you don't measure the price decline. Video Cassette Recorders (VCRs) are classic example.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    I live in the midwest, so I read Sowell a bit. However, there is a tendency among such conservatives to try and deny reality because it doesn't fit their world view. The facts are the facts and far too much evidence out there to deny the problem outright. And noting the problem isn't remotely "Desperate efforts to depict all the prosperity and progress in the U.S. as being monopolized by "the rich" have led to statistical mumbo jumbo, such as comparing the changing ratios between statistical categories over time and ignoring the fact that most people move from one category to another over the years."

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    No, I have no good way of determining if quality of life is better in France in the US
    Try common sense. Excellent, freely available healthcare; long, paid vacations; good schools; small, local family businesses; long life expectancies; unionized industries; and a population active in politics on all levels - it's a relatively healthy society. We don't have to duplicate their exact mode of living to learn honestly from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    It's impossible to say with any certainty that one country just is better than the other.
    Let's not be obtuse. Many other countries have done far better than we have in some respects, and there is no benefit in denying that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    more BS
    No, just more points you can't deny and won't concede.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    -but the libs always think that the top 1% somehow oppress others.
    I think the people who worship the top 1% oppress others.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Its kind of like saying Tiger Woods or Rafal Nadal steal prize moneys from weak competitors.
    Maybe in your world economics is a game. For everyone else, it's food, rent, transportation, electricity, and medical care - not a matter of ego.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Try common sense. Excellent, freely available healthcare; long, paid vacations; good schools; small, local family businesses; long life expectancies; unionized industries; and a population active in politics on all levels - it's a relatively healthy society. We don't have to duplicate their exact mode of living to learn honestly from them.



    Let's not be obtuse. Many other countries have done far better than we have in some respects, and there is no benefit in denying that.



    No, just more points you can't deny and won't concede.



    I think the people who worship the top 1% oppress others.



    Maybe in your world economics is a game. For everyone else, it's food, rent, transportation, electricity, and medical care - not a matter of ego.
    Ah poor libs, so much envy, so little rational thought

    I don't have a duty to provide you rent or transportation. If you are not valuable, then you have no right to expect that others should give you money



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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Ah poor libs, so much envy, so little rational thought
    Your idea of "rational thought" is to think everyone who contradicts you is "just jealous?" Precious. But here's a radical idea: Try honestly reflecting on what people say and then respond constructively.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I don't have a duty to provide you rent or transportation.
    Republicans seem to be experts in what their duties aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    If you are not valuable, then you have no right to expect that others should give you money
    Having money does not make someone the arbiter of human worth. Your position is amoral.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Your idea of "rational thought" is to think everyone who contradicts you is "just jealous?" Precious. But here's a radical idea: Try honestly reflecting on what people say and then respond constructively.



    Republicans seem to be experts in what their duties aren't.



    Having money does not make someone the arbiter of human worth. Your position is amoral.
    I do respond honestly, you haven't been around long enough to see that.

    Taxes should be amoral. I don't have a duty to fund your existence and you have no moral right to my wealth

    your existence benefits me not



  9. #669
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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I live in the midwest, so I read Sowell a bit. However, there is a tendency among such conservatives to try and deny reality because it doesn't fit their world view. The facts are the facts and far too much evidence out there to deny the problem outright. And noting the problem isn't remotely "Desperate efforts to depict all the prosperity and progress in the U.S. as being monopolized by "the rich" have led to statistical mumbo jumbo, such as comparing the changing ratios between statistical categories over time and ignoring the fact that most people move from one category to another over the years."
    Then why are the "facts" that follow people and not classes so hard to find? Do those data not print the pretty picture that you want? Wealth changes hands, it's not monopolized, it's earned. I've shown that the problem of class composition is a large one, so you might want to actually try finding some data that doesn't resort to that fallacy.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Try common sense. Excellent, freely available healthcare; long, paid vacations; good schools; small, local family businesses; long life expectancies; unionized industries; and a population active in politics on all levels - it's a relatively healthy society. We don't have to duplicate their exact mode of living to learn honestly from them.
    And they're not as wealthy. So which is better? I can't tell you and you can't tell me without introducing arbitrary value judgments. Use a model that is completely objective and then we can talk. Until then, neither of us can prove anything to the other about which country is just plain better.

    Let's not be obtuse. Many other countries have done far better than we have in some respects, and there is no benefit in denying that.
    Let's not be obtuse. I never claimed that we were the best in all respects, and the only reason you imply that I believe that is to set up a strawman. We are horrific when it comes to our tax code. Seriously, we're one of the worst countries in the world. in that regard.

    I think the people who worship the top 1% oppress others.
    The top 1% is not a permanent, ruling class. But nice try there.

    Maybe in your world economics is a game. For everyone else, it's food, rent, transportation, electricity, and medical care - not a matter of ego.
    People EARN income, it is not DISTRIBUTED. Learn the difference.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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