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Thread: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    BTW I never ask a question of someone I disagree with if I don't already know the answer.

    That is being called being disingenuous.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    That is being called being disingenuous.
    nope-but I wouldn't expect a non litigator to understand that

    by not answering a question you often prove my points more than you would by answering it.



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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    1) find a quote of mine that backs up your idiotic lie that I somehow am a disciple of Sarah Palin. I am amused that she causes the loony left such issues though
    Well, you would be the first conservative that doesn't idolize her, but don't tell me you don't value Glenn Beck? Rush Limbaugh? And I don't believe either one of those has the credential of Iglesias, yet most conservatives repeat their rhetoric on these forums on a daily basis.

    2) I was an equivalent graduate of Yale plus I have Masters and Law degrees. Thus what I say is more valuable than that guy using your criteria. he has an opinion, no more valuable than someone with the same or better education. He writes-BFD-what did he do that gives him expertise? Its like someone testifying in a malpractice case who has a medical degree and has never practiced medicine, only written about it. I will give you a clue-people like that rarely make it past the judge.
    He has better credentials than most of your commentators on Faux News and like I said, their rhetoric is posted, idolized and committed to memory among the cons on this forum.

    3) I oppose a progressive tax system mainly because it gives politicians too much power and allows those with no skin in the game to jack up the taxes of others. Just because something exists doesn't make it right.
    Our tax system has actually gotten less progressive over the past 40 years. The higher income's rate has dropped dramatically and capital owners earn more net of taxes today than they did in the 60's. Capital gains have faced lower tax rates which benefits high income taxpayers. And, I don't know what you mean by "those with no skin in the game to jack up the taxes" as if our Congressmen don't have to pay taxes.

    4) people making a million a year pay far far more taxes than the vast majority of the voters. they get absolutely no additional benefits from the government over what you get. if you don't want the rich to get big tax cuts above what you get, then don't call for the rich to pay such idiotically high taxes
    Is that what they have you believing? You might want to rethink that.

    George Lakoff and Bruce Budner. "Hidden Truths Of Progressive Taxes". Tom Paine. 16 Apr. 2007 - An important point often lost in this debate is an appreciation that the common wealth, which our taxes create and sustain, empowers the wealthy in myriad ways to create their wealth. We call this compound empowerment — the compounded use of the common wealth by corporations, their investors, and other wealthy individuals.

    Consider Bill Gates. He started Microsoft as a college dropout and has become the world's richest person. Though he has undoubtedly benefited from his unusual intelligence and business acumen, he could not have created or sustained his personal wealth without the common wealth. The legal system protected Microsoft's intellectual property and contracts. The tax-supported financial infrastructure enabled him to access capital markets and trade his stock in a market in which investors have confidence. He built his company with many employees educated in public schools and universities. Tax-funded research helped develop computer science and the internet. Trade laws negotiated and enforced by the government protect his ability to sell his products abroad. These are but a few of the ways in which Mr. Gates' accumulation of wealth was empowered by the common wealth and by taxation.

    As Warren Buffet famously observed, he likely couldn't have achieved his financial success had he been born in Bangladesh instead of the United States, because Bangladesh had no banking system and no stock market.

    Ordinary people just drive on the highways; corporations send fleets of trucks. Ordinary people may get a bank loan for their mortgage; corporations borrow money to buy whole companies. Ordinary people rarely use the courts; most of the courts are used for corporate law and contract disputes. Corporations and their investors — those who have accumulated enough money beyond basic needs so they can invest — make much more use, compound use, of the empowering infrastructure provided by everybody's tax money.

    The wealthy have made greater use of the common good—they have been empowered by it in creating their wealth—and thus they have a greater moral obligation to sustain it. They are merely paying their debt to society in arrears and investing in future empowerment.

    This is the fundamental truth that motivates progressive taxation.

    It is a truth that undercuts conservative arguments about taxation. Taxes provide and maintain the protecting and empowering infrastructure that makes our income possible.

    Our tax forms hide this truth. They do not indicate the extent to which taxes have created and sustained the common wealth so you could earn what you have. They make it look like the empowering infrastructure was just put there by magic and that the government is taking money out of your pocket. The most likely truth is that, through the common wealth, America put more money in your pocket than it took out — by far.


    Argument: Wealthy Benefit More From System, So Owe a Greater Tax Debt



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
    --Adlai Stevenson, Politician





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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    wrong-ever heard of the Robbinson PIttman Act? not a state right issue. different sovereigns

    try again-this is one of the areas I have some professional expertise in.
    good; tell us how the Robinson–Patman Act would have any implication on the collection of taxes across state borders
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Diana Furchtgott-Roth on Inequality :: The Future of Capitalism



    News About Income Inequality :: The Future of Capitalism



    Income Inequality Data :: The Future of Capitalism

    I also once posted something showing how the composition of quintiles varies greatly from year to year. So using data that follows these groups is kind of worthless because you're not following the people. This top quintile of people who continuously earn the money is just a myth. It's a big change in people every year.
    I know nothing about your source, but I have linked multiple sources saying exactly the same thing, using more than one method of reaching the conclusion. I still suspect you protest too much wihtout laying out a viable objection, as I said, your example is far too small a number to actually effect the data.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I know nothing about your source, but I have linked multiple sources saying exactly the same thing, using more than one method of reaching the conclusion. I still suspect you protest too much wihtout laying out a viable objection, as I said, your example is far too small a number to actually effect the data.
    I'm guessing you didn't read my sources since I showed that the volatility issue actually is significant. Only 6% of millionaires stayed millionaires in those 9 consecutive years. 6%! Where is this class of the permanent rich? I don't see it.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    [COLOR="navy"]George Lakoff and Bruce Budner. "Hidden Truths Of Progressive Taxes". Tom Paine. 16 Apr. 2007 - An important point often lost in this debate is an appreciation that the common wealth, which our taxes create and sustain, empowers the wealthy in myriad ways to create their wealth. We call this compound empowerment — the compounded use of the common wealth by corporations, their investors, and other wealthy individuals.
    That "common wealth" supports all of us, not just the rich. This is an argument for a flat tax, not a progressive tax. The "common wealth" helps the rich proportionally to how much it helps the poor.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I'm guessing you didn't read my sources since I showed that the volatility issue actually is significant. Only 6% of millionaires stayed millionaires in those 9 consecutive years. 6%! Where is this class of the permanent rich? I don't see it.
    Your links post a few very short paragraphs and don't give us much in detail, so I can make no assumptions based on them. hence, I know very little about your source. Your claim, that we started with, that there are people sitting wealthy, and thus skew the satisditcs, meaning more people are sitting in the middle than noted, doesn't hold up as any sitting with money and not working are too small a number to matter.

    Dropping below a million wouldn't invalidate the gap either, because they don't likely drop from millionare status to poverty or even middle class. 900,000 a year isn't middle class either.

    Agian, many different people and groups have looked and studied this and report the same gap. I don't see anything in your links to dispute this.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude
    wrong-ever heard of the Robbinson PIttman Act? not a state right issue. different sovereigns

    try again-this is one of the areas I have some professional expertise in.
    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    good; tell us how the Robinson–Patman Act would have any implication on the collection of taxes across state borders
    As far as I can see, it wouldn't...

    LINK
    ...a United States federal law that prohibits what were considered, at the time of passage, to be anticompetitive practices by producers, specifically price discrimination.
    LINK
    The Robinson-Patman Act prohibits a seller of commodities from selling comparable goods to different buyers at different prices, except in certain circumstances.
    Robinson–Patman Act
    It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, either directly or indirectly, to discriminate in price between different purchasers of commodities of like grade and quality...

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Things I came across:

    What's more, Piketty and Saez's analysis showed that from 2004 to 2005, virtually all of the net gains in income went to the top 10 percent of earners, while income for the remaining 90 percent of Americans stayed about the same when adjusted for inflation.

    "In the current period... the top is seeing gains, while people in the middle of the spectrum really have been treading water," said Aron-Dine, of the Center on Budget Policy and Priorities. "You could be less concerned about inequality where you have (widespread) income growth, versus when some go up a lot, and others not all."

    PolitiFact | Income gap is big, but so are its causes

    Is that a liberal's talking point? Sure. But it's also a line from the recent public testimony of a champion of the free market: Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan.

    Rich-poor gap gaining attention / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

    The gaps in after-tax income between the richest 1 percent of Americans and the middle and poorest fifths of the country more than tripled between 1979 and 2007 (the period for which these data are available), according to data the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) issued last week. Taken together with prior research, the new data suggest greater income concentration at the top of the income scale than at any time since 1928.

    Income Gaps Between Very Rich and Everyone Else More Than Tripled In Last Three Decades, New Data Show — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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