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Thread: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

  1. #1061
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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by zip98053 View Post
    Wasn't claiming any causality. Conservative said that there was not any period in the last 30 years when the tax when up and debt when down. These articles seem to differ.

    As for causality, lets go look at the national debt as a percentage of GDP.

    Gross National Debt as a Percent of GDP, by President

    It is pretty obvious from that chart that, since Ike left office, the Republicans screw up the balance sheet. Reagan and Bush I really hosed things and it took Clinton to fix it. Then, another Bush and, guess what, more fiscal irresponsibility.

    Facts say that Republicans haven't shown any propensity toward fiscal responsibility. They argue for cutting taxes in a way that helps the rich at the expense of the middle class which bogus claims that it helps employment. Nonsense.

    Republicans campaign is blatant hypocrisy. They campaign on fiscal responsibility and and the record is clear that they are not fiscally responsible. They campaign on family values and they have just as many gays as the population as a whole (I think that is OK but for the hypocrisy). They campaign on keeping government out of you life except they want to regulate what a woman does with her womb (when did motherhood become mandatory).

    Republicans consistently do things that are anti-middle class and the stupid middle class keeps voting for them. We are so dain brammaged that its not funny any more.

    Sorry, what was the question?
    what is anti middle class?



  2. #1062
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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I don't blame you, too many facts in there including a time line. Not surprising as you don't want anything that refutes what you have been told. Facts are facts regardless of who reports them.
    I have absolutely no issue with the facts that The Heritage Foundations puts into their documents. What I question is the way that they will unabashedly twist the "facts" an claim that they show something that they don't really show. Just to give a concrete example, I read the report (actually, I didn't read the whole report but I looked at the tables that they produced to make their points. Their chart 1 was enough to let me know that this was not going to be very enlightening. That chart claims to show that the economy grows faster after a tax cut. Does say what kind or the size of the tax cut. It doesn't even tell us how many tax increase and cuts that they looked at (there is a strong implication that they only considered what happened during the Clinton administration) so there is no way to know if this really represents something that is statistically significant. It's like waking up one morning and seeing snow on the ground an deciding that this is proof that global warming is not true.

    Anyway, the article then goes on to explain that a tiny cut in the capital gains rate made a big difference in investment activity (e.g. venture capital).The relationship between tax cuts and The Republicans didn't cut the marginal tax rate. Generalizing this to saying tax cuts are good is stupid. This is why I don't bother with crap like the reports from The Heritage Foundation. There is no rigor in their analysis. They select data to make a point and that's all they show. It's great for people who don't know how to think for themselves because it gives them "authoritative" links to stick into their posts.

    Hey, I like a good tax cut as well as the next guy but just whacking away doesn't do any good. I'd like not to have a large deficit to pass on to my descendants because I don't want the interest on the debt to take an excessive part of the budget. I'd like to see the debt as a percentage of GDP to go back down. I don't give a damn how big it is in absolute numbers, it just needs to be a reasonable percentage. We can't just cut discretionary spending to make this happen. Discretionary spending isn't a large enough part of the budget anymore. We will probably have to do some things to make SS solvent (raise the upper limit on income subject to FICA and bump the retirement age a couple of years). We need to try to grow ourselves out of this mess. Keeping the capital gains rate low would held. Letting the Bush cuts for the wealthy expire will not hurt anything (at least not according to the data in The Heritage Foundation article that you provoked me to read).

    The best thing for making the economy grow has always been to spend big on infrastructure. This does two things: it creates immediate jobs and it improves productivity. Higher, productivity makes us better able to compete with countries that rely on low labor costs. I've watched two episodes of infrastructure building, both of them were superhighways: one real (the Eisenhower Interstate System) and the other digital (the Internet). Those were the catalyst for surges in investment and improvements in productivity. We need a new super highway system to build. Maybe the energy superhighway.

    Hum, seem to have wandered off again...

    Anyway, Heritage Foundation puts out crap. Well written and wonderfully deceptive crap; but crap none the less.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    you willing to pay half of your income in taxes Zip?



  4. #1064
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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you willing to pay half of your income in taxes Zip?
    The taxes I will pay under the Obama plan vs the Mccain plan are virtually the same. They only increase significantly for those who make over $160k per year. I doubt anyone of this forum makes over that amount.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what is anti middle class?
    I presume that you want to know what the Republicans are doing to cause the middle class to shrink?

    1) encouraging the export of jobs to third-world countries
    2) allowing credit card companies to charge usury-level interest (they fought like hell to keep Obama's credit reform from passing)
    3) working to make it harder for unions to form - I don't like bad unions but there needs to be some reasonable balance between employee and employer and that doesn't exist now.
    4) corporate welfare - produces profits, not jobs and, when companies are not paying their fair share of taxes, the burden falls on the rest of us
    5) and the biggie - deal with education. When people have no skills, they can't get jobs that pay well. I'm not saying that we should pump money into a system that is dominated by the NEA (not a good union) nor should the system be dominated by people like the bozos in Texas who by textbooks that indoctrinate rather than educate. But, I suspect that having a really well educated citizenry would work counter to the Republican agenda which relies on people being as clueless as possible.


    The failure to look after the middle class in America is not a recent phenomenon. It is a problem that has persisted across many administrations. It is a consequence of globalization, which is a good thing. The problem is, globalization was supposed to work for us by having us send the low-skill jobs to low-paying countries while we upgraded our workforce to do higher-valued tasks. Well, we did half of what we were supposed to do. We sent the low-skilled jobs overseas. Forgot about the second part.

    Bush did No Child Left Behind. Nice plan. He and the Republican-controlled Congress just didn't bother to pay for it.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you willing to pay half of your income in taxes Zip?
    I'm willing for my marginal rate to go back up to the pre-Bush tax cut days.

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny DooWop View Post
    The taxes I will pay under the Obama plan vs the Mccain plan are virtually the same. They only increase significantly for those who make over $160k per year. I doubt anyone of this forum makes over that amount.
    Do I get thrown off the forum if I do?

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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Interesting how the Bureau of Economic Analysis doesn't show that meltdown when the Republicans were in charge of Congress. Looks to me like 52 straight months of job creation and economic growth including the last year of the GOP/Bush Budget, 2007 (2003-2007). Democrats take control of the Congress in January 2007 and the country goes into recession December 2007 yet according to you it was the Republican Congress that how did you say it, "oversee a meltdown in the economy?" Let me know what it is you are smoking or drinking?
    Well, I hope that I'm not drinking the same cool-aid as you.

    So, if you want to say that the party in charge of Congress is responsible for anything that happens from the instant that they get sworn in; how about 9/11? Biggest loss of life on American soil by foreign nationals since 1812. Clearly a massive screwup by the Republicans since they had been in control of Congress since 1995 and held the Presidency for months (almost 9). Should have impeached the lot of them on the spot. Right?

    Since you have obviously forgotten that the financial problems started way before Dec. 2007, try this:

    The Financial Crisis Timeline

    The time line only shows the actual unraveling of the system. It doesn't show the process of decay that preceded it while the Republicans ran the country. I know that you don't really believe that the Democrats could have prevented this meltdown in the two-weeks-ish that they were in control of Congress before the crisis started. Why bother trying to blame them? I'm really not as naive as you seem to think and I think that you aren't as dumb as to believe what you are saying.

  9. #1069
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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny DooWop View Post
    The taxes I will pay under the Obama plan vs the Mccain plan are virtually the same. They only increase significantly for those who make over $160k per year. I doubt anyone of this forum makes over that amount.
    I think you might be surprised.

  10. #1070
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    Re: Census finds record gap between rich and poor

    Quote Originally Posted by zip98053 View Post
    Well, I hope that I'm not drinking the same cool-aid as you.

    So, if you want to say that the party in charge of Congress is responsible for anything that happens from the instant that they get sworn in; how about 9/11? Biggest loss of life on American soil by foreign nationals since 1812. Clearly a massive screwup by the Republicans since they had been in control of Congress since 1995 and held the Presidency for months (almost 9). Should have impeached the lot of them on the spot. Right?

    Since you have obviously forgotten that the financial problems started way before Dec. 2007, try this:

    The Financial Crisis Timeline

    The time line only shows the actual unraveling of the system. It doesn't show the process of decay that preceded it while the Republicans ran the country. I know that you don't really believe that the Democrats could have prevented this meltdown in the two-weeks-ish that they were in control of Congress before the crisis started. Why bother trying to blame them? I'm really not as naive as you seem to think and I think that you aren't as dumb as to believe what you are saying.
    The crisis didn't begin the first day they took office, it took place 11 months later, plenty of time to do the damage. I posted GDP and jobs numbers which of course you ignored. I gave you the 2003-2007 GDP and it does seem that you lack a basic understanding of the way our govt. operates. The Democrat Congress controlled the legislative process thus the budget process. They could have stopped anything Bush did and you seem to blame Bush for the problems therefore tell me why they didn't do anything to stop him? There is a simple answer, there was nothing Bush proposed that caused the problems we faced and the Democrats were more concerned about winning the WH than preventing problems for the country.

    Zip, you got your wish, a leftwing radical President and the results speak for themselves. If we had a pro growth, pro free enterprise, and not a pro big govt. Administration we would have 4-6% economic growth now and a massive cut in the unemployment numbers in the country thus more revenue to the govt. Instead we have 2% economic growth, millions of employees added to the Federal workforce, and trillions added to the debt. That seems to be the liberal definition of success. Why do you support this agenda?

    The cries from the left is give us more time, more time to do what? If you spend trillions to stimulate the economy and you get these kind of results why would you step on the gas and saddle ourselves with more massive debt? We do not have an economy and never will have an economy to pay for thes kind of debt being generated.

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