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Thread: Transgender senior can't be king

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    Re: Transgender senior can't be king

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    except for the fact that this highschool isn't located in ancient Egypt. The principal, who happens to run the school, made the rules "vote for a boy for king, girl for queen". and since according to the official records this person is a girl, he/she/it was not eligible to be king.
    You've missed the point. There is a precedent on which the student can base their argument. The school can make whatever rules they like, but if they can't uphold them, why bother fighting the legal battle. I can make the rule that at my office all people with blond hair must stand outside. That doesn't make me right.
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    Re: Transgender senior can't be king

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    You've missed the point. There is a precedent on which the student can base their argument. The school can make whatever rules they like, but if they can't uphold them, why bother fighting the legal battle. I can make the rule that at my office all people with blond hair must stand outside. That doesn't make me right.
    but if you are the boss and people want to work in your office then they have to comply or file a complaint. Until this person files a complaint against the school, all this discussion is meaningless tripe.

    School says king has to be a boy, records show this person is a girl, this person cannot be king. Case closed, game over...until someone challenges the school. Then school caves but it is too late because homecoming is already over, so what is the fudging point?
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Transgender senior can't be king

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    but if you are the boss and people want to work in your office then they have to comply or file a complaint. Until this person files a complaint against the school, all this discussion is meaningless tripe.

    School says king has to be a boy, records show this person is a girl, this person cannot be king. Case closed, game over...until someone challenges the school. Then school caves but it is too late because homecoming is already over, so what is the fudging point?
    Are you really advocating that the school should set a ridiculous standard, possibly incurring legal expenses, paid by the taxpayer, just so they can say, "Haha, we win and we don't care what anyone else thinks?"

    I never said I support this student's rights one way or the other. I just think it is rather foolish of the school to suddenly go back on previous expectations on something that should really be a non-issue.

    No one in this thread so far has been able to present a reasonable downside or even a lasting impact to this child being elected Prom King.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Transgender senior can't be king

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Are you really advocating that the school should set a ridiculous standard, possibly incurring legal expenses, paid by the taxpayer, just so they can say, "Haha, we win and we don't care what anyone else thinks?"

    I never said I support this student's rights one way or the other. I just think it is rather foolish of the school to suddenly go back on previous expectations on something that should really be a non-issue.

    No one in this thread so far has been able to present a reasonable downside or even a lasting impact to this child being elected Prom King.

    I'm not advocating that the school should do anything. I am merely explaining the situation as it currently stands. Personally I don't give a rat's ass if the kids elect a 3 legged dog to be homecoming king.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Transgender senior can't be king

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I'm not advocating that the school should do anything. I am merely explaining the situation as it currently stands. Personally I don't give a rat's ass if the kids elect a 3 legged dog to be homecoming king.
    I can read the article and see the current situation very clearly for myself, that doesn't mean the school is making a good choice OR in the right. Personally, I think it's in their best interests to step off and let this one slide. That's all I'm saying.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Transgender senior can't be king

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    I can read the article and see the current situation very clearly for myself, that doesn't mean the school is making a good choice OR in the right. Personally, I think it's in their best interests to step off and let this one slide. That's all I'm saying.
    I think, in this case, the whole thing has been OBE (overcome by events). For future reference, if you are going to allow a female student to be treated as male, dress as male, be called male, then don't do stupid crap like this.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: Transgender senior can't be king

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I think, in this case, the whole thing has been OBE (overcome by events). For future reference, if you are going to allow a female student to be treated as male, dress as male, be called male, then don't do stupid crap like this.
    I believe that was my point, I made over 6 pages back

    Here's the problem, the way I see it. The school failed to set definitive rules. If they had refused to let the student participate as a male in any other activities, I would probably stand by their decision to exclude the individual from running for Homecoming King.

    However, they allowed the student to be male in every other aspect of school life.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Re: Transgender senior can't be king

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    I believe that was my point, I made over 6 pages back
    Here's the problem, the way I see it. The school failed to set definitive rules. If they had refused to let the student participate as a male in any other activities, I would probably stand by their decision to exclude the individual from running for Homecoming King.

    However, they allowed the student to be male in every other aspect of school life.
    Devil's advocate, from the school's perspective, I would guess they didn't think allowing this kid to be treated as male on an average daily basis was a big deal. They only had a problem with it when the kid (and the kids who voted for her) made a big public deal out of (which I think was some of the kid's reasoning behind the whole thing)

    one female out of a school of hundreds dressing and acting like a guy...no big whoop, who cares and how many people even noticed
    electing a female as homecoming King...publicity stunt (I have a sneaky, cynical suspicion that this is akin to all the "popular" kids voting for the fat ugly girl as prom queen)
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: Transgender senior can't be king

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Ok, to continue with what I was saying. The causes of transexualism are not completely known. This is not an issue that has been studied, extensively. However, recently, there have been studies using MRI's and exploring the limbic system that have demonstrated some potential causality. Both genetics and biology have been considered as links.

    Much of the information regarding the studies done on the causes of transsexualism are highly technical in nature. I will attempt to explain them in layman's terms"

    A study done in 2000 examined the part of the brain that identifies gender identity... the central subdivision of the bed-nucleus of the stria terminalis or BSTc for short. They examined the somatostatin (SOM), a hormone, neurons. What they found was this. Males have 3-4 times the amount of SOM neurons than females do. This is regardless of sexual orientation; homosexual males were similar to males just as homosexual females were similar to females. However, when examining the SOM neurons of transsexuals, they found that FTM (females who claimed to be male) SOM neurons were in the MALE range while MTF (males who claimed to be females) SOM neurons were in the FEMALE range. They examined people who had hormone treatment, who had not, who had sex reassignment surgery, and who had not. Didn't matter. The SOM neuron levels remained the same. Also irrelevant was when the individual indicated their transsexualism. This gives indication that whatever the cause, it occurs while the individual develops in the womb.

    Link to the actual study and links to other information used:

    Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus -- Kruijver et al. 85 (5): 2034 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism
    Male to Female Transsexual Individuals have Female Neuron Numbers in the Central Subdivision of the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis - Tara's Transgender Resources


    There also may be a DNA link to transsexualism. In a 2008 study, researchers discovered that MTF transsexuals have a longer version of the androgen receptor gene which causes weaker testosterone signals... similar to that of females.

    Link to that information:

    BBC NEWS | Health | Transsexual gene link identified

    The first study that I posted has been reproduced and is being used to explore the answers to a numbers of questions about human sexual development.

    If we are talking about biological gender development, we all know that an XX person is female and an XY person is male. However, what this creates is the anatomical differences between males and females. It does NOT impact the brain and hormone level development. It is theorized that in transsexuals, hormone surges, often occurring in the 3rd month of pregnancy occur in the opposite fashion as would typically occur. An XX fetus might get the hormonal surge, whereas an XY might not. This can account for the differences in the BSTc SOM receptors. There is some discussion that this may be caused by hormones or other medications ingested during pregnancy, such as DES, but there is no conclusive evidence surrounding this. What is clear is that a transsexual's brain-hormonal pathways operate similar to the sex opposite to what they are anatomically.

    Things to consider when discussing transsexualism. Firstly, though there is a strong connection between the differentiation in BSTc SOM neurons and gender identity, the mechanisms that create gender are complex and not completely understood; the brain is still a very complicated organ.

    Secondly, cases of children who may have had some genital abnormality at birth, and were "reassigned" to the opposite sex for cosmetic reasons at that time, retained their chromosomal identity. In other words, if a boy was born without a penis, but with testicles, and he was castrated a brought up as a girl, he would retain his gender identity and STILL identify as a boy. A study done with children like this found that all eventually presented as male, not female as they were raised. This gives credence to the idea that transsexualism is NOT socially or environmentally driven.

    Hopkins research shows nature, not nurture, determines gender

    Thirdly, it has been found that true transsexual people cannot be "cured" though psychiatry or psychology. This is NOT a mental disorder, but an inconsistency between brain-hormonal functioning/structure and chromosomal anatomy.

    Further links that provided information for this post:

    http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Resea...s/etiology.pdf
    Transsexuality
    Transsexualism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Please feel free to ask any questions. This is just an overview as there is more information.

    In my post, tomorrow, I will discuss treatment for GID and how it relates to transsexualism. There is a pretty clear set of guidelines, and as someone who actively treats folks with GID, I will identify them both from a clinical position and from an experiential position.
    Wow, real data! I'm impressed CC. The first study is the one I'm looking at now, and I agree with the conclusions of the researchers, however, like them, I caution that the corollaries are based on the relative assumption that the dimorphic structure of the brain is necessarily sexual, or primarily sexual.

    Either way, it is an interesting read, thanks for posting it.

    Tim-
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  10. #280
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    Re: Transgender senior can't be king

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Since transexualism in and of itself is NOT a mental disorder, your point is not only irrelevant, but is a non-sequitur.
    Here is what the DSM says:

    DSM-IV-TR Diagnostic Criteria For Gender Identity Disorder

    So, what do you have to say to that? How about the fact the Wikipedia page you cited explicitly says transsexualism is included in gender identity disorder?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy;1059011371A study done in 2000 examined the part of the brain that identifies gender identity... [SIZE=2
    the central subdivision of the bed-nucleus of the stria terminalis or BSTc for short. They examined the [/SIZE]somatostatin (SOM), a hormone, neurons. What they found was this. Males have 3-4 times the amount of SOM neurons than females do. This is regardless of sexual orientation; homosexual males were similar to males just as homosexual females were similar to females. However, when examining the SOM neurons of transsexuals, they found that FTM (females who claimed to be male) SOM neurons were in the MALE range while MTF (males who claimed to be females) SOM neurons were in the FEMALE range. They examined people who had hormone treatment, who had not, who had sex reassignment surgery, and who had not. Didn't matter. The SOM neuron levels remained the same. Also irrelevant was when the individual indicated their transsexualism.
    I have looked at somatostatin and I am not seeing what role it could possibly play in gender identity.

    Secondly, cases of children who may have had some genital abnormality at birth, and were "reassigned" to the opposite sex for cosmetic reasons at that time, retained their chromosomal identity. In other words, if a boy was born without a penis, but with testicles, and he was castrated a brought up as a girl, he would retain his gender identity and STILL identify as a boy. A study done with children like this found that all eventually presented as male, not female as they were raised. This gives credence to the idea that transsexualism is NOT socially or environmentally driven.
    That doesn't give credence to anything of the sort. For one a person being physically one gender thinking he or she is of that gender is what one would expect. Second, it requires you to discount the possibility that the child has not received subtle mixed signals or blatant mixed signals that would impact the child's perception of his or her gender.

    Thirdly, it has been found that true transsexual people cannot be "cured" though psychiatry or psychology. This is NOT a mental disorder, but an inconsistency between brain-hormonal functioning/structure and chromosomal anatomy.
    There are many mental disorders that are believe to be incurable as I am sure you are aware. Being incurable does not mean it is not a disorder.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

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