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Transgender senior can't be king

Why is everyone overlooking the possibility that the kids voted for "her" as homecoming king as part of a cruel joke. Having taught in public school for 11 years, I have seen first hand how mean spirited and closed minded some kids can be. I think it is somewhat naive to assume that these kids voted for this transgendered student out of some lofty sentiment.

and just how did not allowing this kid to be homecoming king ruin everything? did they cancel homecoming over it? as has been said, it's not that big a deal and I doubt that many of the kids at that school actually gave a rat's ass who the homecoming king and queen were.

Same thing happened last year with that lesbian bringing her lover to prom. All the kids were for it, but the school was against it, stopped it, the ACLU sued, and the school instead of caving completely didn't have a prom at all. The kids? Well they had two proms, one for the lesbo and her lover, of which about 8 kids attended, all freaks I might add, and the other was secret, and the lesbo and her lover were not invited.

Goes to show.. Just coz the kids are all nice, don't mean that they too can spot a freak when they see one.. :)

By the way, GID is concoction, and is nowhere near a provable condition.


Tim-
 
3) Why do people with gender identification issues create such strong emotion from other people? I mean, really...on the list of important things, what gender some one identifies as simply does not make the list.

I am concerned more because it is just one in a long line of actions where society is seeking to impose tolerance at a young age, effectively denying them independence. Encouraging a child to cave into the social pressure that if you are a girl and act like a boy that you are either gay or really just a boy in a girl's body is completely inappropriate. That is not the same as suggesting children be made to conform to society's idea of how a boy or girl must behave.

My annoyance is with this notion of "political correctness" being jammed down everyone's throat by the force of law. Whether it is embracing white guilt or demanding people take drugs or get surgery in order to be the person society decides you have to be it is not improving this country, but destroying it.
 
I am concerned more because it is just one in a long line of actions where society is seeking to impose tolerance at a young age, effectively denying them independence. Encouraging a child to cave into the social pressure that if you are a girl and act like a boy that you are either gay or really just a boy in a girl's body is completely inappropriate. That is not the same as suggesting children be made to conform to society's idea of how a boy or girl must behave.

My annoyance is with this notion of "political correctness" being jammed down everyone's throat by the force of law. Whether it is embracing white guilt or demanding people take drugs or get surgery in order to be the person society decides you have to be it is not improving this country, but destroying it.

Wow, that is impressive spin completely rooted in some imaginary world with nothing to do with the real world. Here is some real information: some people with gender identification issues are the "man in a woman's body", some get off on transgenderism, some have entirely other issues, and some might be gay. Some are a combination of all the above. The phrase a"political correctness" is one of the phrases used to demonize a point of view you cannot counter factually, and so you toss a dirty label on it.

The real truth is, while people make a big deal out of transgendered people in any way, it is probably harmful to those who are transgendered. As long as they are not hurting any one, we should all just shut the **** up about them and let them live their life.
 
I am concerned more because it is just one in a long line of actions where society is seeking to impose tolerance at a young age, effectively denying them independence. Encouraging a child to cave into the social pressure that if you are a girl and act like a boy that you are either gay or really just a boy in a girl's body is completely inappropriate. That is not the same as suggesting children be made to conform to society's idea of how a boy or girl must behave.

My annoyance is with this notion of "political correctness" being jammed down everyone's throat by the force of law. Whether it is embracing white guilt or demanding people take drugs or get surgery in order to be the person society decides you have to be it is not improving this country, but destroying it.

When did society say he was a guy? Because all I can see is society trying to tell him he is a girl just because the way he was born.
 
I am concerned more because it is just one in a long line of actions where society is seeking to impose tolerance at a young age, effectively denying them independence. Encouraging a child to cave into the social pressure that if you are a girl and act like a boy that you are either gay or really just a boy in a girl's body is completely inappropriate. That is not the same as suggesting children be made to conform to society's idea of how a boy or girl must behave.

My annoyance is with this notion of "political correctness" being jammed down everyone's throat by the force of law. Whether it is embracing white guilt or demanding people take drugs or get surgery in order to be the person society decides you have to be it is not improving this country, but destroying it.
Yeah, God forbid we actually teach kids to be tolerant about people with mental illness! We ought to just open up the sanitariums like they had in the old days and throw all the mentally unfit in there. That'll teach 'em to be all wacked in the head! Gawd Bless America!!
 
Fascinating. As usual, in situations like these, the level of lack of understanding of this issue is massive. I treat people with GID. It happens to be a developing specialty area of mine. I would be happy to answer any legitimate questions about the issue. For those of you who reject the concept, as usual, you are uneducated on the topic, and unless you want to be educated, don't bother responding.
 
CC, what are the causes? What are the treatments?
 
Because all I can see is society trying to tell him he is a girl just because the way he was born.

Oh the horror...society telling you you are a girl because you were born with two X chromosomes and a vagina. those BASTARDS!!!!!!!
 
CC, what are the causes? What are the treatments?

I will post this in stages, as I must get back to work, shortly. First, one must define the terms, as there is a difference between transgenderism and GID. GID... Gender Identity Disorder, is the disorder that predates one being considered transgendered. Transgenderism, in and of itself is NOT a disorder, but a state of being, similar to heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, etc... When someone believes that they are transgendered, the first step is to be diagnosed with GID, in order to make the determination of whether the individual is transgendered or whether there is a different issue going on that is creating the appearence of transgenderism. This is similar to someone who acts out sexually in a way that is contrary to their sexual orienation because they are in a manic state of being bipolar.

The direct causes of transgenderism are unknown, however, there have been a few studies that have shown that how the brain responds to male-oriented or female oriented stimuli is different in transgendered folks than in non-transgendered folks. So, we know that gender and sexual orientation has at least partial formation in the brain, but since the workings of the brain are no completely known, total understanding of the formation of gender identity is not known at this time.

I can provide links to this information, later, along with a very specific course of treatment that is to be followed to not only make the determination, but to assist in the outcome. For now, it's back to work.
 
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Wow, that is impressive spin completely rooted in some imaginary world with nothing to do with the real world. Here is some real information: some people with gender identification issues are the "man in a woman's body", some get off on transgenderism, some have entirely other issues, and some might be gay. Some are a combination of all the above.

Someone being aroused by the idea of being the opposite sex has no gender identification issue, but a fetish. However, this is irrelevant because whatever other uses you might have for the term we are talking about it with regards to a person's identity as a boy or a girl despite his or her biology.

The phrase a"political correctness" is one of the phrases used to demonize a point of view you cannot counter factually, and so you toss a dirty label on it.

Actually, it is a phrase used by both sides to describe behaviors or comments that are considered appropriate and non-offensive. The opposite being something considered inappropriate and offensive.

The real truth is, while people make a big deal out of transgendered people in any way, it is probably harmful to those who are transgendered. As long as they are not hurting any one, we should all just shut the **** up about them and let them live their life.

I do not believe we would not say this about any other mental disorder.

When did society say he was a guy? Because all I can see is society trying to tell him he is a girl just because the way he was born.

The way she was born is who she is and encouraging her low self-esteem and delusions that she somehow isn't good enough the way she was born is completely inappropriate.

Yeah, God forbid we actually teach kids to be tolerant about people with mental illness! We ought to just open up the sanitariums like they had in the old days and throw all the mentally unfit in there. That'll teach 'em to be all wacked in the head! Gawd Bless America!!

I believe children should be encouraged to question rather than accept and obey everything authority tells them. Tolerance should not be imposed on anyone, but instead children allowed to learn and understand. When you impose tolerance it does not foster real tolerance, but some distorted mentality that masquerades as the genuine article.

Fascinating. As usual, in situations like these, the level of lack of understanding of this issue is massive. I treat people with GID. It happens to be a developing specialty area of mine. I would be happy to answer any legitimate questions about the issue. For those of you who reject the concept, as usual, you are uneducated on the topic, and unless you want to be educated, don't bother responding.

By all means tell me of any other mental illness where it is suggested that a person have any of his or her body parts turned inside out because their disorder tells them they should.
 
Fascinating. As usual, in situations like these, the level of lack of understanding of this issue is massive. I treat people with GID. It happens to be a developing specialty area of mine. I would be happy to answer any legitimate questions about the issue. For those of you who reject the concept, as usual, you are uneducated on the topic, and unless you want to be educated, don't bother responding.

I believe Tucker already asked us twice to debate the issue not the people CC.
 
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Just because a dude has a mental condition that makes him think he's a chick, it doesn't change the fact that he's a dude.

If a person had a mental condition that made them act like/ think they're a monkey, would we give them bananas and put them in a cage in the zoo?

Maybe I'm a nitpicking semantic purist, but if you have a penis and completely lack a vagina, you are a male, to be referred to as he, himself, and him. And if you have a vagina, but completely lack a penis, you can't be called "king", because "king" describes males.
 
Maybe I'm a nitpicking semantic purist, but if you have a penis and completely lack a vagina, you are a male, to be referred to as he, himself, and him. And if you have a vagina, but completely lack a penis, you can't be called "king", because "king" describes males.

King also describes a person with absolute authority, or at least with a dream, and neither of which apply to the homecoming doovy, and the person was known by male pronouns, wore male clothing, and was viewed as male.
 
King also describes a person with absolute authority, or at least with a dream, and neither of which apply to the homecoming doovy, and the person was known by male pronouns, wore male clothing, and was viewed as male.

"Homecoming king" is a perfectly semantically sound term, as it is a term in itself with its own definition separate from the latter word.

It doesn't matter if she wears male clothing and is referred to as male. I could run around stark naked and be referred to as a chimpanzee, but it wouldn't make me one. She'll be male soon enough, when she undergoes the sex change operation.
 
Again the word sex has not changed at all in any way shape or form. You are trying to parse the wording to mean something it does not. Nor have you provided a single defintion that supports your claim

Until you can explain how it is different it is not an argument.

Gender is tied to sex directly in each of the definitions provided by myself and others.

More definitions:

a. The condition of being female or male; sex.

20; often the classification correlates in part with sex or animateness.

Ah. So, you don't like the definition you posted now, eh? Gotta find a different one to fit your agenda? :lol:

Fact is, in social sciences, it refers to gender roles as related to the society in which one lives.
 
By all means tell me of any other mental illness where it is suggested that a person have any of his or her body parts turned inside out because their disorder tells them they should.

Since transexualism in and of itself is NOT a mental disorder, your point is not only irrelevant, but is a non-sequitur.
 
Ok, to continue with what I was saying. The causes of transexualism are not completely known. This is not an issue that has been studied, extensively. However, recently, there have been studies using MRI's and exploring the limbic system that have demonstrated some potential causality. Both genetics and biology have been considered as links.

Much of the information regarding the studies done on the causes of transsexualism are highly technical in nature. I will attempt to explain them in layman's terms"

A study done in 2000 examined the part of the brain that identifies gender identity... the central subdivision of the bed-nucleus of the stria terminalis or BSTc for short. They examined the somatostatin (SOM), a hormone, neurons. What they found was this. Males have 3-4 times the amount of SOM neurons than females do. This is regardless of sexual orientation; homosexual males were similar to males just as homosexual females were similar to females. However, when examining the SOM neurons of transsexuals, they found that FTM (females who claimed to be male) SOM neurons were in the MALE range while MTF (males who claimed to be females) SOM neurons were in the FEMALE range. They examined people who had hormone treatment, who had not, who had sex reassignment surgery, and who had not. Didn't matter. The SOM neuron levels remained the same. Also irrelevant was when the individual indicated their transsexualism. This gives indication that whatever the cause, it occurs while the individual develops in the womb.

Link to the actual study and links to other information used:

Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus -- Kruijver et al. 85 (5): 2034 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism
Male to Female Transsexual Individuals have Female Neuron Numbers in the Central Subdivision of the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis - Tara's Transgender Resources


There also may be a DNA link to transsexualism. In a 2008 study, researchers discovered that MTF transsexuals have a longer version of the androgen receptor gene which causes weaker testosterone signals... similar to that of females.

Link to that information:

BBC NEWS | Health | Transsexual gene link identified

The first study that I posted has been reproduced and is being used to explore the answers to a numbers of questions about human sexual development.

If we are talking about biological gender development, we all know that an XX person is female and an XY person is male. However, what this creates is the anatomical differences between males and females. It does NOT impact the brain and hormone level development. It is theorized that in transsexuals, hormone surges, often occurring in the 3rd month of pregnancy occur in the opposite fashion as would typically occur. An XX fetus might get the hormonal surge, whereas an XY might not. This can account for the differences in the BSTc SOM receptors. There is some discussion that this may be caused by hormones or other medications ingested during pregnancy, such as DES, but there is no conclusive evidence surrounding this. What is clear is that a transsexual's brain-hormonal pathways operate similar to the sex opposite to what they are anatomically.

Things to consider when discussing transsexualism. Firstly, though there is a strong connection between the differentiation in BSTc SOM neurons and gender identity, the mechanisms that create gender are complex and not completely understood; the brain is still a very complicated organ.

Secondly, cases of children who may have had some genital abnormality at birth, and were "reassigned" to the opposite sex for cosmetic reasons at that time, retained their chromosomal identity. In other words, if a boy was born without a penis, but with testicles, and he was castrated a brought up as a girl, he would retain his gender identity and STILL identify as a boy. A study done with children like this found that all eventually presented as male, not female as they were raised. This gives credence to the idea that transsexualism is NOT socially or environmentally driven.

Hopkins research shows nature, not nurture, determines gender

Thirdly, it has been found that true transsexual people cannot be "cured" though psychiatry or psychology. This is NOT a mental disorder, but an inconsistency between brain-hormonal functioning/structure and chromosomal anatomy.

Further links that provided information for this post:

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Research-Assets/etiology.pdf
Transsexuality
Transsexualism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please feel free to ask any questions. This is just an overview as there is more information.

In my post, tomorrow, I will discuss treatment for GID and how it relates to transsexualism. There is a pretty clear set of guidelines, and as someone who actively treats folks with GID, I will identify them both from a clinical position and from an experiential position.
 
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Originally Posted by Demon of Light
By all means tell me of any other mental illness where it is suggested that a person have any of his or her body parts turned inside out because their disorder tells them they should.

Here's one. Body Integrity Identity Disorder...a desire to amputate one's own body parts or to become a paraplegic. Very rare. Very real:

BIID is attracting the attention of researchers who suspect that the condition may be related to other body image disorders—including anorexia, body dysmorphic disorder, and gender identity disorder—that at first glance may seem entirely psychological, but may be linked to physical differences in the brain. "In studying the hinterland between neurology and psychology, we can tell not just about people with conditions themselves, but how all our brains work," says Paul McGeoch, a neurologist at the University of San Diego who is currently doing brain scans on people with BIID. McGeoch's research may help answer the fundamental question: is BIID a mental illness or a hard-wired identity?
BIID: Why Sufferers Amputate Their Own Limbs - Newsweek
 
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I was just reading through this thread again when I was reminded of something from an Art History study I did in college. Took me a second to find a source to back it up. It looks like everyone arguing that a king is male by definition has just lost the battle.

Kings were not only males, and unlike in modern monarchies, the ruler of ancient Egypt, whether male or female, was always called a king. In fact, Egypt had some very noteworthy female rulers such as Hatshepsut and others.

As far back as Ancient Egypt, there has been precedent for female kings.

Egypt: The Kings (Pharaohs) of Ancient Egypt

Game. Set. Match.
 
I was just reading through this thread again when I was reminded of something from an Art History study I did in college. Took me a second to find a source to back it up. It looks like everyone arguing that a king is male by definition has just lost the battle.



As far back as Ancient Egypt, there has been precedent for female kings.

Egypt: The Kings (Pharaohs) of Ancient Egypt

Game. Set. Match.

except for the fact that this highschool isn't located in ancient Egypt. The principal, who happens to run the school, made the rules "vote for a boy for king, girl for queen". and since according to the official records this person is a girl, he/she/it was not eligible to be king.
 
except for the fact that this highschool isn't located in ancient Egypt. The principal, who happens to run the school, made the rules "vote for a boy for king, girl for queen". and since according to the official records this person is a girl, he/she/it was not eligible to be king.

You've missed the point. There is a precedent on which the student can base their argument. The school can make whatever rules they like, but if they can't uphold them, why bother fighting the legal battle. I can make the rule that at my office all people with blond hair must stand outside. That doesn't make me right.
 
You've missed the point. There is a precedent on which the student can base their argument. The school can make whatever rules they like, but if they can't uphold them, why bother fighting the legal battle. I can make the rule that at my office all people with blond hair must stand outside. That doesn't make me right.

but if you are the boss and people want to work in your office then they have to comply or file a complaint. Until this person files a complaint against the school, all this discussion is meaningless tripe.

School says king has to be a boy, records show this person is a girl, this person cannot be king. Case closed, game over...until someone challenges the school. Then school caves but it is too late because homecoming is already over, so what is the fudging point?
 
but if you are the boss and people want to work in your office then they have to comply or file a complaint. Until this person files a complaint against the school, all this discussion is meaningless tripe.

School says king has to be a boy, records show this person is a girl, this person cannot be king. Case closed, game over...until someone challenges the school. Then school caves but it is too late because homecoming is already over, so what is the fudging point?

Are you really advocating that the school should set a ridiculous standard, possibly incurring legal expenses, paid by the taxpayer, just so they can say, "Haha, we win and we don't care what anyone else thinks?"

I never said I support this student's rights one way or the other. I just think it is rather foolish of the school to suddenly go back on previous expectations on something that should really be a non-issue.

No one in this thread so far has been able to present a reasonable downside or even a lasting impact to this child being elected Prom King.
 
Are you really advocating that the school should set a ridiculous standard, possibly incurring legal expenses, paid by the taxpayer, just so they can say, "Haha, we win and we don't care what anyone else thinks?"

I never said I support this student's rights one way or the other. I just think it is rather foolish of the school to suddenly go back on previous expectations on something that should really be a non-issue.

No one in this thread so far has been able to present a reasonable downside or even a lasting impact to this child being elected Prom King.


I'm not advocating that the school should do anything. I am merely explaining the situation as it currently stands. Personally I don't give a rat's ass if the kids elect a 3 legged dog to be homecoming king.
 
I'm not advocating that the school should do anything. I am merely explaining the situation as it currently stands. Personally I don't give a rat's ass if the kids elect a 3 legged dog to be homecoming king.

I can read the article and see the current situation very clearly for myself, that doesn't mean the school is making a good choice OR in the right. Personally, I think it's in their best interests to step off and let this one slide. That's all I'm saying.
 
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