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Thread: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan war

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    Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

    Obama should have thrown the book at the brass for being insubordinate. Being the president means being the commander in chief.

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    Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Sadly, you won't, because it'll take generations to win it.

    When you're fighting inhuman cockroaches, they just keep coming out of the cracks. But if you don't keep stepping on them, they'll eventually run you out of your own house.
    It would be a lot cheaper to just make sure they aren't in our house in the first place, instead of traveling halfway around the world and spending hundreds of billions of dollars to step on them.
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    Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Apparently neither can you, since you can't define what victory would look like. Do you envision Afghanistan becoming a free, stable, prosperous democracy modeled on American values and free of terrorists? That's not going to happen. Or did you have some lesser vision of victory in mind? If so, what is it?

    No matter how many times you shriek "ZOMG WE NEED TO WIN LOL," unless you can clearly explain what victory looks like and how our military presence in Afghanistan will help us achieve that goal, you aren't really saying anything substantive.

    Well, let me start by saying to not only you but to all libs, current, past, present, hiding behind the cover of some "Indy" label, or out in the open and proud of it. Victory in a war against the Taliban, and AQ is a different thing from nation building Afghanistan.

    I'd love to see the Afghany's prosper from their own natural resources, and have stable government elected by the people, and a military that can root out extremism, and abide a rule of law. I guess that means showing the majority of people in Afghanistan a higher standard of living to combat extremism.

    As for the Taliban, and AQ, they must be crushed physically wherever they are. To win a war is to inflict enough damage to the enemy that they lose the will to continue. Currently we are not doing that. And Obama doesn't have the stomach to do it, that much is clear.


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    Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It would be a lot cheaper to just make sure they aren't in our house in the first place, instead of traveling halfway around the world and spending hundreds of billions of dollars to step on them.
    We are still in Europe, Japan, and approximately 170 other places in the world. What's the difference?


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    Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    We are still in Europe, Japan, and approximately 170 other places in the world. What's the difference?
    Europe and Japan aren't third world ****holes where insurgents are shooting our troops on a daily basis. We long ago accomplished our original missions in those places. We mostly stay there for other reasons now. For diplomatic goodwill (in the case of Germany) or to keep an eye on potential threats outside of the country in which our base is located (in the case of Japan). We don't need to worry about stabilizing Germany or Japan, or squashing any terrorist movements in those countries.

    Afghanistan, on the other hand, is arguably the least developed nation in the entire world. It is poorly educated, tribal, and has been war-torn for decades. In other words, it is exactly the type of place where extremism breeds. And nothing we can do can change that. You say that defeating the Taliban and al-Qaeda is different from nation-building...but as long as Afghanistan remains the way it is in terms of development, it will be a hotbed for extremism. Killing some al-Qaeda folks doesn't eliminate the problem, because more will just take their place. At a certain point, we simply need to recognize that American power is not infinite and this is simply not a problem that we are capable of solving...and certainly not the best use of our limited resources.
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    Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well, let me start by saying to not only you but to all libs, current, past, present, hiding behind the cover of some "Indy" label, or out in the open and proud of it. Victory in a war against the Taliban, and AQ is a different thing from nation building Afghanistan.

    I'd love to see the Afghany's prosper from their own natural resources, and have stable government elected by the people, and a military that can root out extremism, and abide a rule of law. I guess that means showing the majority of people in Afghanistan a higher standard of living to combat extremism.

    As for the Taliban, and AQ, they must be crushed physically wherever they are. To win a war is to inflict enough damage to the enemy that they lose the will to continue. Currently we are not doing that. And Obama doesn't have the stomach to do it, that much is clear.


    j-mac
    yet another person who learned nothing from the malaise that was vietnam
    prosper from their own natural resources
    this is a tribal society, which shows no desire to leave the 16th century, much less enter the 21st
    it is a nation governed by religious ideals rather than secular values
    they have natural resource riches, but are without the means to extract them
    the afghanis will have to recognize the potential wealth is worth the risk to allow outside interests to join with them to exploit the opportunities the natural resources provide
    we cannot do that for them
    and have stable government elected by the people
    again, this is a tribal society which seems comfortable living as a tribal society. we cannot want democracy for them. the afghans must want it for themseleves
    and a military that can root out extremism
    do the afghans see eradicating their nation of outsiders they view as occupiers really that extreme, if viewed from their perspective?
    i know if the afghanis were over here, weapons in hand, trying to force their islamic law, tribal ways and rules of conduct on American citizens, i would fight to rid our country of such undesirable foreign influence. would that be viewed as extremism to them?
    and abide a rule of law.
    haven't the afghanis been living under their own rules of law for ages prior to the very existence of the USA?
    maybe you meant to abide by the rule of American law
    how would we feel if they came to our shore insisting that we adopt their islamic law?
    I guess that means showing the majority of people in Afghanistan a higher standard of living to combat extremism
    we could do that by engaging in commerce with them - not by war

    there can be no victory in afghanistan
    the best we can hope for is not unlike the result in vietnam ... declare victory and bring our troops home

    now, if we have a group of afghanis who want to oppose an afghan government our nation also opposes, then by all means let us train and provide support to those who want to bring a better government - one we can abide - to that nation

    but they must want it enough to fight for it. then let us help them so they can fight for their own better government
    that is not what is happening now
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

    when watergate wonderboy woodward (from wapo) wags, white houses worry

    the elitists just salivate over this guy, his opinion becomes imprimatur

    the upshot---this war, OBAMA'S WAR, which has NOT received the national and media attention it deserves, is precipitously hi profile

    the upshot---our FAILURES there on every conceivable level are suddenly center stage

    obama ESCALATED afghanistan, it cannot be denied

    his "strategy" is characteristically incoherent, equal parts SURGE and WITHDRAWAL

    his "exit strategy" changes more often than michelle goes on vacation, from deadline to drawdown to glide path to transition, all "conditions based," of course

    that this DITHERING administration is dysfuntional comes as no surprise to those of us who have been watching, their amateurish missteps at every turn reveal the obvious

    but that woodward would so rule, the verdict voice of the establishment professional left, indicates the dysfunction is undeniable

    the president's heart is not in it, we're only over there because obtuse obama made this RIGHT WAR so prime a plank of his campaign---that's woodward's word, not mine

    why? why would oblivious obama campaign SO HARD on WAGING A WAR, that's the question YOU need to ask yourself

    and why did YOU go along?

    american deaths are at an all time high, about 180 this summer

    9 were killed yesterday in a copter crash

    woodward ensures these sacrifices begin to receive their rightful attention

    woodward reveals that over-his-head obama's "strategy" sessions were dominated not by tactics but by POLITICS

    he didn't need a victory strategy, he needed an EXIT

    "i can't afford to lose the entire democratic party"

    it is now clear we have NO chance of "winning" over there, no matter how triumph is defined

    did you note the afghan elections last weekend, fraught with fraud and violence?

    did you see the wiki leaks and what they showed---our pakistani "partners" selling us out

    how can you count on anything with KARZAI as your collaborator?

    did you glean the message screamed by stanley mcchrystal?

    word is, petraeus is pissed, he's NOT allowed on the sunday talks, he came and rescued this bum when mcchrystal outed him and left him general-less

    and this is the guy, barack hussein, who REFUSED to vote in the senate against the suggestion that today's savior was back then A TRAITOR (david betrayus)

    the banks are being run on, there's billions of us aid dollars flying out of kabul, THE ENEMY WE SEEK AREN'T EVEN IN AFGHANISTAN, they're next door in nuclear pakistan

    afghanis who are seen to side with us are in great danger of being separated from their heads after that precious EXIT obama seeks is found

    and they know it

    THEY'LL be reading woodward

    obama's claims that he's valiantly defending united states national security are exposed as farce

    neocon support for OBAMA'S WAR turns cynical

    the left, like that courageous cfo at the georgetown townhall, becomes "exhausted from defending" him

    like dadt, obnoxious obama's heart is simply not in this fight

    the war in afghanistan is an unwinnable disaster waged by leadership for the most base and cynical of reasons

    and now, thanks to watergate's wonderboy, EVERYONE KNOWS

    and everyone is TALKING ABOUT IT

    now you understand that this guy DOES NOT know what he's doing

    we are all very, very sorry
    Last edited by The Prof; 09-22-10 at 08:35 PM.

  8. #18
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    Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    How exactly do you envision a victory playing out? Afghanistan simply isn't going to become a stable, liberal democracy anytime soon, REGARDLESS of what we do. The country is just too underdeveloped and too fragmented.
    "Liberal Democracy"? There's an oxymoron.

    Let me spell out victory for the losers among us: The Taliban and any other Islamic nut job orginizations are exterminated and the level headed folk in the country take charge and put things back together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    yet another person who learned nothing from the malaise that was vietnam

    this is a tribal society, which shows no desire to leave the 16th century, much less enter the 21st
    it is a nation governed by religious ideals rather than secular values
    they have natural resource riches, but are without the means to extract them
    the afghanis will have to recognize the potential wealth is worth the risk to allow outside interests to join with them to exploit the opportunities the natural resources provide
    we cannot do that for them

    again, this is a tribal society which seems comfortable living as a tribal society. we cannot want democracy for them. the afghans must want it for themseleves

    do the afghans see eradicating their nation of outsiders they view as occupiers really that extreme, if viewed from their perspective?
    i know if the afghanis were over here, weapons in hand, trying to force their islamic law, tribal ways and rules of conduct on American citizens, i would fight to rid our country of such undesirable foreign influence. would that be viewed as extremism to them?

    haven't the afghanis been living under their own rules of law for ages prior to the very existence of the USA?
    maybe you meant to abide by the rule of American law
    how would we feel if they came to our shore insisting that we adopt their islamic law?

    we could do that by engaging in commerce with them - not by war

    there can be no victory in afghanistan
    the best we can hope for is not unlike the result in vietnam ... declare victory and bring our troops home

    now, if we have a group of afghanis who want to oppose an afghan government our nation also opposes, then by all means let us train and provide support to those who want to bring a better government - one we can abide - to that nation

    but they must want it enough to fight for it. then let us help them so they can fight for their own better government
    that is not what is happening now
    Speak for yourself. The biggest lesson learned from Vietnam, is that politics don't win wars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #20
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    Re: Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan for Afghan w

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Europe and Japan aren't third world ****holes where insurgents are shooting our troops on a daily basis. We long ago accomplished our original missions in those places. We mostly stay there for other reasons now. For diplomatic goodwill (in the case of Germany) or to keep an eye on potential threats outside of the country in which our base is located (in the case of Japan). We don't need to worry about stabilizing Germany or Japan, or squashing any terrorist movements in those countries.

    Afghanistan, on the other hand, is arguably the least developed nation in the entire world. It is poorly educated, tribal, and has been war-torn for decades. In other words, it is exactly the type of place where extremism breeds. And nothing we can do can change that. You say that defeating the Taliban and al-Qaeda is different from nation-building...but as long as Afghanistan remains the way it is in terms of development, it will be a hotbed for extremism. Killing some al-Qaeda folks doesn't eliminate the problem, because more will just take their place. At a certain point, we simply need to recognize that American power is not infinite and this is simply not a problem that we are capable of solving...and certainly not the best use of our limited resources.
    Tell us what years Japan and Germany were allowed to field their own armies, again. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't prior to 1950.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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