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'Don't ask, don't tell' repeal in doubt

disneydude said:
Navy...you are so full of BS sometimes. You always say...."let the people decide".....unless 80% of the people are against what you want...and then its "let someone else decide"....
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For my money, there's a difference between a majority decision in ordinary circumstances. In this case, however, there are constitutional rights at stakes. And so you'll no in advance, I think homosexuality is a sin. This, however, is a country that allows for all views. And my Christian religion allows that each person makes a choice concerning their own salvation. No one has shown me a reason that people who wish to serve this country and risk their lives for what it's values -- should not be allowed to do so in service to their country. Throughout the years, I've lived in dorms and housing units with other women (some of whom were gay) and never had a problem. I wish I could say the say the same for some of the men I have worked with.
 
roguenuke said:
We had straight guys who were hitting on other guys in order to mess with them. Have you never seen guys messing around with each other? They were trying to see if they could get on the other guys' nerves.

And we had gay guys who openly admitted that they were gay to the department. Our department chain of command could care less, as long as they did their jobs, which they did, and didn't try to do anything to anyone else, which they didn't. I truly doubt that any of the ship's Captains during my time aboard cared if any of his crew were gay, as long as they did their job and no one complained.
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Sounds like high school stuff to me...No I have never heard of thaton the 6 ships I served on............Again I think your talking more about lesbians...........I have heard of guys that say they are gay in order to get discharged when they are really straight.............

Your female I believe and its very different when its lesbians vs gay men.........I am not saying it right but lesbians are looked at differently then gay men.........A lot of women switch hit.....Men usually don't.............
 
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Navy Pride said:
Sounds like high school stuff to me...No I have never heard of thaton the 6 ships I served on............Again I think your talking more about lesbians...........I have heard of guys that say they are gay in order to get discharged when they are really straight.............

Your female I believe and its very different when its lesbians vs gay men.........I am not saying it right but lesbians are looked at differently then gay men.........A lot of women switch hit.....Men usually don't.............
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I am speaking completely about the men in my department, not the women. The guys did stuff like this to each other, but especially people who were sternly opposed to anything or were overly religious. Some of it is hearsay, but I did witness some of the joking going on in the plant as well and even at division picnics and/or private parties. Most of the guys in the military are between the ages of 18 and 24 (although most in my department had to be at least 19 by the time they reached the ship, just due to the amount of schooling we go through). But the picking at each other was not just perpetrated by the young guys. I knew at least one older guy (by which I mean late 20s, early 30s) who loved to mess with any guy who seemed to be uncomfortable with gays. He was happily married but he played it up well. This was a way for them to try to "loosen up" some of the guys who might be overly sensitive. We all had to work together and we are severely undermanned. It does us no good to have people discharged because someone else is uncomfortable with their lifestyle or the way they come across.

BTW, yes, I know I was supposed to report any horseplay in the plant, but I honestly don't care. I reported things that I absolutely felt were dangerous, everything else was self regulated before it got out of hand, while I was around anyway.
 
Yes, guys do play around acting gay at times, including in the navy. I would never guess that was a controversial statement.
 
roguenuke said:
I am speaking completely about the men in my department, not the women. The guys did stuff like this to each other, but especially people who were sternly opposed to anything or were overly religious. Some of it is hearsay, but I did witness some of the joking going on in the plant as well and even at division picnics and/or private parties. Most of the guys in the military are between the ages of 18 and 24 (although most in my department had to be at least 19 by the time they reached the ship, just due to the amount of schooling we go through). But the picking at each other was not just perpetrated by the young guys. I knew at least one older guy (by which I mean late 20s, early 30s) who loved to mess with any guy who seemed to be uncomfortable with gays. He was happily married but he played it up well. This was a way for them to try to "loosen up" some of the guys who might be overly sensitive. We all had to work together and we are severely undermanned. It does us no good to have people discharged because someone else is uncomfortable with their lifestyle or the way they come across.

BTW, yes, I know I was supposed to report any horseplay in the plant, but I honestly don't care. I reported things that I absolutely felt were dangerous, everything else was self regulated before it got out of hand, while I was around anyway.
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I nice that you can take the UCMJ and follow some of the regs and ignore the other ones you don't agree with............You do know that is not the way the system works............I have seen horseplay and such but I have never seen any guy pretend to be gay and assault a shipmate to embarrass him...........If someone did that to me there were be a fight and I would plant my size 13 boot where the sun does not shine as I believe most of the shipmates I had would do..............I have a good frined who is a master chief on the CVN John Stennis and we have actually discussed this thread at lunch in the Chief Quarters and hewas shocked by some of the statements made by members in this forum..........He thinks as I do that a lot of people in this forum (Presently company sort of excluded) are clue of life aboard a navy ship...........I agree with him............
 
Redress said:
Yes, guys do play around acting gay at times, including in the navy. I would never guess that was a controversial statement.
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I never saw it in my 21 years service on 6 ships with all respect to you is a little more then you had....................To me and the people I know that sounds disgusting and if I saw that I would stop it immediately................
 
soccerboy22 said:
One executive order will fix this mess. Well until a different president takes away the executive order.
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That is true and it would just be another case where the will of the people (the Senate) who we elect to make our laws was ignored.............
 
Navy Pride said:
I nice that you can take the UCMJ and follow some of the regs and ignore the other ones you don't agree with............You do know that is not the way the system works............I have seen horseplay and such but I have never seen any guy pretend to be gay and assault a shipmate to embarrass him...........If someone did that to me there were be a fight and I would plant my size 13 boot where the sun does not shine as I believe most of the shipmates I had would do..............I have a good frined who is a master chief on the CVN John Stennis and we have actually discussed this thread at lunch in the Chief Quarters and hewas shocked by some of the statements made by members in this forum..........He thinks as I do that a lot of people in this forum (Presently company sort of excluded) are clue of life aboard a navy ship...........I agree with him............
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First of all, where did I say that anyone was "sexually assaulted"? I said that they would "hit" on the other guys and that I knew of one instance where the guys climbed into one of the guy's racks, as far as I know, they were all at least partially clothed. If the guys felt that someone really would "plant" anything or start any fight, they toned it to a level appropriate for that person. I don't know what your definition of "hitting on" someone is but mine means they would ask the guy for a date, batting eyes, possibly swatting the butt (although guys do this sometimes anyway), fake kissing (the "kisser" placed his hand over the other guy's mouth and kissed his own hand), and unasked-for group hugs. Oh, and there could be random leg humping, but I really only seen that done with people the other guy knew wouldn't really care. None of this constitutes "sexual assault" in my book. Some may see it that way, and I'm sure there are even cases where people have been charged for it, but it more closely fits "sexual harassment". And, honestly, if it didn't bother anyone else enough to bring it up, it didn't bother me. Plus, we have this thing called a mouth, and we are all taught that the first step in stopping sexual harassment is to tell the person their behavior is not appropriate. Because what I might consider inappropriate may seem fine for some people, and what I would consider okay, may be inappropriate for others.

And anyone who is completely unaware that stuff like I mentioned above happens, is either deluding themselves or their guys are scared enough of them that they make sure that they don't get caught or turned in. I know what happens in ERs especially on mid and late night watches. I've been there. It also tends to happen when sailors are forced to wait around in their work space after they cleaned for hours on end and they need their space inspected before they are released for liberty.
 
roguenuke said:
First of all, where did I say that anyone was "sexually assaulted"? I said that they would "hit" on the other guys and that I knew of one instance where the guys climbed into one of the guy's racks, as far as I know, they were all at least partially clothed. If the guys felt that someone really would "plant" anything or start any fight, they toned it to a level appropriate for that person. I don't know what your definition of "hitting on" someone is but mine means they would ask the guy for a date, batting eyes, possibly swatting the butt (although guys do this sometimes anyway), fake kissing (the "kisser" placed his hand over the other guy's mouth and kissed his own hand), and unasked-for group hugs. Oh, and there could be random leg humping, but I really only seen that done with people the other guy knew wouldn't really care. None of this constitutes "sexual assault" in my book. Some may see it that way, and I'm sure there are even cases where people have been charged for it, but it more closely fits "sexual harassment". And, honestly, if it didn't bother anyone else enough to bring it up, it didn't bother me. Plus, we have this thing called a mouth, and we are all taught that the first step in stopping sexual harassment is to tell the person their behavior is not appropriate. Because what I might consider inappropriate may seem fine for some people, and what I would consider okay, may be inappropriate for others.

And anyone who is completely unaware that stuff like I mentioned above happens, is either deluding themselves or their guys are scared enough of them that they make sure that they don't get caught or turned in. I know what happens in ERs especially on mid and late night watches. I've been there. It also tends to happen when sailors are forced to wait around in their work space after they cleaned for hours on end and they need their space inspected before they are released for liberty.
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Did you ever consider that maybe it was just the ship you were on..............I consider unwanted advances assault......I am sure the guy that was assaulted did not enjoy it even if the so called joke was on him..............I think the things you mentioned to any straight sailor would be disgusting and uncalled for........

I guess you and I come from a different Navy and no offense I like mine much better...............We shall see how this survey comes out in December, whether it is closer to my or your Navy...............If the guys I have talked to on the Stennis are any example I feel confident it will be mine............

I was just wondering you identify yourself as slightly conservative yet your position on DADT is about as far left as you can be............How do you explain that?
 
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Navy Pride said:
Did you ever consider that maybe it was just the ship you were on..............I consider unwanted advances assault......I am sure the guy that was assaulted did not enjoy it even if the so called joke was on him..............I think the things you mentioned to any straight sailor would be disgusting and uncalled for........

I guess you and I come from a different Navy and no offense I like mine much better...............We shall see how this survey comes out in December, whether it is closer to my or your Navy...............If the guys I have talked to on the Stennis are any example I feel confident it will be mine............

I was just wondering you identify yourself as slightly conservative yet your position on DADT is about as far left as you can be............How do you explain that?
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Much of my generation is more accepting of gays, especially in the military. There is very little reason not to be. And, I'm pretty sure it is not just my ship, since my husband has told me that he seen it during his time as a Marine, both in his own unit and on the ship he was on. I doubt we were onboard the only ships in the entire Navy that ever saw such stuff.

I am prolife and promilitary. And I believe in being responsible for your own life. I am progun, anti-gun restriction laws. I am anti-drugs. I am very much against illegal immigration and any amnesty to illegal immigrants. Gay rights is one of the few issues that I am completely liberal about. They are doing no harm to anyone by just being gay, so I figure, if I can do it as a heterosexual, then they should be able to do it. Sexuality should not determine someone's fitness for serving their country, and it is wrong to make them lie about it or hide it since heterosexuals don't have to hide theirs.
 
Navy Pride said:
So she committed adultery...............
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And you are accessory to the crime.

Punitive Articles of the UCMJ
Article 134— Adultery

(1) That the accused wrongfully had sexual intercourse with a certain person;

(2) That, at the time, the accused or the other person was married to someone else; and

Article 134— Adultery
 
roguenuke said:
Much of my generation is more accepting of gays, especially in the military. There is very little reason not to be. And, I'm pretty sure it is not just my ship, since my husband has told me that he seen it during his time as a Marine, both in his own unit and on the ship he was on. I doubt we were onboard the only ships in the entire Navy that ever saw such stuff.

I am prolife and promilitary. And I believe in being responsible for your own life. I am progun, anti-gun restriction laws. I am anti-drugs. I am very much against illegal immigration and any amnesty to illegal immigrants. Gay rights is one of the few issues that I am completely liberal about. They are doing no harm to anyone by just being gay, so I figure, if I can do it as a heterosexual, then they should be able to do it. Sexuality should not determine someone's fitness for serving their country, and it is wrong to make them lie about it or hide it since heterosexuals don't have to hide theirs.
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If most of your generation is pro gay rights how do you explain whenever a vote is taken be it by the senate or the people of a state you have never won once..The only time you ever win is when activist judges over rule the will of the people.........

I am not talking about the Marines although their Commandent is dead against lifting DADT as are the other service commanders.....Sorry the Marines are not the Navy...........

I myself if the people in the Navy aboard ship say its ok for gays to serve openly you will never hear another word agaianst it.................Will you make the same pledge if the survey goes against you?
 
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winston53660 said:
And you are accessory to the crime.

Punitive Articles of the UCMJ
Article 134— Adultery

(1) That the accused wrongfully had sexual intercourse with a certain person;

(2) That, at the time, the accused or the other person was married to someone else; and

Article 134— Adultery
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I am a Roman Catholic and I will take the word of my Parish Priest who told me in Confession although a mortal sin it was not adultery on my part...........
 
Navy Pride said:
I am a Roman Catholic and I will take the word of my Parish Priest who told me in Confession although a mortal sin it was not adultery on my part...........
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You'd still get popped by the military.

Now what was it you said about picking and choosing which regs to follow?

Oh yeah:

Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
I nice that you can take the UCMJ and follow some of the regs and ignore the other ones you don't agree with...........
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Glass houses my right wing friend.
 
Navy Pride said:
If most of your generation is pro gay rights how do you explain whenever a vote is taken be it by the senate or the people of a state you have never won once..The only time you ever win is when activist judges over rule the will of the people.........

I am not talking about the Marines although their Commandent is dead against lifting DADT as are the other service commanders.....Sorry the Marines are not the Navy...........

I myself if the people in the Navy aboard ship say its ok for gays to serve openly you will never hear another word agaianst it.................Will you make the same pledge if the survey goes against you?
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My husband was on multiple Navy ships, with Navy crew. He is currently in the Navy. And just so you know, Marines are still under DON.

No, I won't make such a pledge, because a) the survey isn't to see who wants to allow gays to serve openly, but what problems may come up when it happens, and b) I don't care how uncomfortable people are with having to share spaces with openly gay sailors. In the words of a former Rear Adm. I served under, they need to "get over it". They can suck it up and do their job. The military shouldn't be pandering to anyone's personal discomforts, but doing what is good for the military. There has never been any evidence given that shows any correlation between gays serving openly and either damage to unit cohesion or military effectiveness or any kind of increase in sexual harassment caused by homosexuals.
 
I can't see a situation wherein "don't ask, don't tell" is not repealed before 2020. Probably in the next 5 years, if not sooner.

The majority opinion seems to be that it's a stupid ****ing setup.
 
Navy Pride said:
I am a Roman Catholic and I will take the word of my Parish Priest who told me in Confession although a mortal sin it was not adultery on my part...........
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The rules of the military say that you can be charged with adultery as a single man sleeping with another man's wife. Just as a friend of my husband's found out the hard way.
 
roguenuke said:
My husband was on multiple Navy ships, with Navy crew. He is currently in the Navy. And just so you know, Marines are still under DON.

No, I won't make such a pledge, because a) the survey isn't to see who wants to allow gays to serve openly, but what problems may come up when it happens, and b) I don't care how uncomfortable people are with having to share spaces with openly gay sailors. In the words of a former Rear Adm. I served under, they need to "get over it". They can suck it up and do their job. The military shouldn't be pandering to anyone's personal discomforts, but doing what is good for the military. There has never been any evidence given that shows any correlation between gays serving openly and either damage to unit cohesion or military effectiveness or any kind of increase in sexual harassment caused by homosexuals.
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As I see it, if there was an increase in sexual harassment by or against homosexuals, the regulations against sexual harassment should take care of them, and good riddance.
 
The Mark said:
As I see it, if there was an increase in sexual harassment by or against homosexuals, the regulations against sexual harassment should take care of them, and good riddance.
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Agreed. Just like the arguments that bring up fraternization. We already have enough rules in place to deal with the most obvious issues that expected to arise.
 
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