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Thread: Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

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    Re: Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Indonesia used to be a beacon of tolerance in the Islamic world... not anymore...
    Was it? News to me.
    I thought it was Morocco's


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    Re: Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Was it? News to me.
    I thought it was Morocco's
    It may not be the only beacon, but Indonesia, especially in Asia, was seen as a beacon for religious tolerance. It is sad to see that this has changes and people in Indonesia have lost this.

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    Re: Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

    Which brings us to the question ijtihad....Ideally speaking, Ijtihad itself means making laws by interpretation. This is why there is a history of islamic tolerance and openness back before the 10th century. There were experts back then whose task was read the qur'an and the records of hadith in order to update their interpretation of islamic laws (sharia) and adapt it to changing times.

    All these died in the 10th Century, with the rise of Caliph Al-Ghazali. He killed off ijtihad, believing that the qur'an and hadith should be interpreted - and applied - literally.
    Ghazali went so far as to declare individual interpretation of faith - as was and still is done by the Sufis (the mystics) - to be heretical.

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    Re: Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

    Why on earth would any Christian want to go to let alone live in any Muslim Nation. Islam is a death Cult and Indonesia is the largest Muslim Country there is with about 202.9 million identified as Muslim (88.2% of the total population). And that my friends is a lot of trouble waiting to happen.

    And yes you hear some claim to be moderates but that is BS the Cults guide book tells them they must kill the infidels and boys and girls is any one who is not a Muslim. Of course they give one chance to convert but then hey. You have got a head lopping or stoning in your future.

    They can't help it it's drummed it to them from child hood and they are not allowed to think for themselves ever and there is no such thing as having the spirit move yo, You have to toe the line or else.

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    Re: Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Muslims can't seem to get themselves off this bedrock of close minded xenophobia because they do not have the will to say to their leaders, "Excuse me, Mr. Imam? I think you're ****ing wrong."

    Thats Islam's biggest problem. The unwillingness of its scholars, its leaders, to acknowledge that their understanding of Islam is flawed. And that the Qur'an, really, is a product of an old and violent arab culture that cannot necessarily be applied so literally in the modern world. Modern Islam is oppressive not only to those they consider infidels, but also to muslims that do not share their believes. There are major cases of persecution against islamic sects that do not conform to the Sunni interpretation of Islam in Indonesia.
    Exactly. Indonesia has long been a special case in the Islamic world due to the wealth of religions and philosophies that predated the arrival of Islam in the area AND the fact that the arrival of Islam was generally peaceful. This has led Indonesians to be generally tolerant, and MOST still are. It is just the extremists who are getting bolder and bolder because the current president is beholden to Islamist groups and is not cracking down and following the Indonesian constitution. He should be impeached but THAT will never happen. Many of my Christian Indonesian friends have left the country in recent years due to recent persecution.
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    Re: Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Was it? News to me.
    I thought it was Morocco's
    Then you know little about Indonesia and its history...
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    Re: Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    Why on earth would any Christian want to go to let alone live in any Muslim Nation. Islam is a death Cult and Indonesia is the largest Muslim Country there is with about 202.9 million identified as Muslim (88.2% of the total population). And that my friends is a lot of trouble waiting to happen.

    And yes you hear some claim to be moderates but that is BS the Cults guide book tells them they must kill the infidels and boys and girls is any one who is not a Muslim. Of course they give one chance to convert but then hey. You have got a head lopping or stoning in your future.

    They can't help it it's drummed it to them from child hood and they are not allowed to think for themselves ever and there is no such thing as having the spirit move yo, You have to toe the line or else.
    Christians have been living in Indonesia for hundreds of years in peace with their neighbors. The Buddhists and Hindu communities there PREDATE the arrival of Islam about five centuries ago (for most of the archipelago, it arrived earlier further west).

    It isn't a matter of Christians moving to Indonesia and choosing to live there. There have been communities of Christians there for centuries.
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    Re: Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Exactly. Indonesia has long been a special case in the Islamic world due to the wealth of religions and philosophies that predated the arrival of Islam in the area AND the fact that the arrival of Islam was generally peaceful. This has led Indonesians to be generally tolerant, and MOST still are. It is just the extremists who are getting bolder and bolder because the current president is beholden to Islamist groups and is not cracking down and following the Indonesian constitution. He should be impeached but THAT will never happen. Many of my Christian Indonesian friends have left the country in recent years due to recent persecution.
    I believe religion is a great social agreement where faith acts as guidelines of human conduct. In that case, religion must be willing to adapt to the times, like I mentioned in many other thread/forums, back in the days razing whole villages to the ground, selling off its inhabitants to slavery, engaging in rapine and plunder were common practices in warfare. The Romans did it, the Greeks did it, the Chinese did it, the Japanese did it...everyone did. But such practices are unacceptable in our current stage of civilization, and as such, the rules of warfare changed.

    Religion is the same thing. Back in medieval times, if you're a catholic, you probably wouldn't even blink if you see a woman tied to a stake and burned in your town after she was declared a heretic by the inquisition. Nowadays, such things are unthinkable, and as such the catholic church - indeed the Catholic faith, underwent a transformation to become the faith that it is today.

    The thing is, Christianity is willing to learn. At one point of time, Christians looked at themselves, and looked at their religion and said, "Ya know,we can't live like this any longer, people." And they grew, they enlightened their whole faith. The current church (that teaches compassion, love and all that) is very much different than the churches of the medieval times.

  9. #19
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    Re: Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    So the Church was illegally built?
    It happens all the time in Indo. I have a friend who has a mfg. company there.

    He partnered with this guy, who had the land and could act as a front. He asked him how long it would take to set up the factory. He said we could start tomorrow. Of course as a Euro he was beyond surprised. They started once the plans were drawn; over 100-people work there. No permits.

    Happens all the time; not only that but he's had newspaper articles about him there.

    This is persecution and intolerance plain and simple.

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    Last edited by zimmer; 09-19-10 at 03:00 PM.
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    Re: Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    Why on earth would any Christian want to go to let alone live in any Muslim Nation. Islam is a death Cult and Indonesia is the largest Muslim Country there is with about 202.9 million identified as Muslim (88.2% of the total population). And that my friends is a lot of trouble waiting to happen.

    And yes you hear some claim to be moderates but that is BS the Cults guide book tells them they must kill the infidels and boys and girls is any one who is not a Muslim. Of course they give one chance to convert but then hey. You have got a head lopping or stoning in your future.

    They can't help it it's drummed it to them from child hood and they are not allowed to think for themselves ever and there is no such thing as having the spirit move yo, You have to toe the line or else.
    You have no idea what is going on in Indonesia. I have been to Jakarta three times over the past four years and never had any issues. Once was During Christmas and it was funny how many businesses had people wearing Santa hats and were promoting the holiday.

    Not to say that tolerance of Christians is not much worse in other areas but people in glass houses should not throw stones, as our own intolerance of Muslims is nothing to be proud of.

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