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Thread: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

  1. #911
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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I am really concerned about how leftwing the West Coast has become as it doesn't matter what the results are the people there will keep smoking or drinking the "strange" stuff. Anyone that would insinuate that the Founding Fathers were split on how much power the Central Govt. should have doesn't really know much about history and our Founding Fathers.
    Well, I live on the West Coast and I can tell you a few things: As for me, I personally agree with many Republican economic policies, and 7-8 of the 10 request in the Tea Party "contract", however the problem is they come wrapped in a package of xenophobia, jingoism, ultra-agressive neo-conservative foreign policy, dogmatic Christian principles, and a desire to still keep gays as second class citizens. Those things are equally as contradictory to the ideas are founding fathers had about the future of this country (at least the Northern ones). I think that is why a lot of "liberals" support democratic economic policies. Its the same reason why rural, poor whites support the Republican party even though their tax cuts and other policies only favor people who make over $250k a year. The poor whites don't give sh*t about the rich having tax cuts, they want gays kept as second class citizens, abortion made illegal again, marijuana to remain illegal, aggressive military policy, and hope to put someone in office who will put greater restriction on Muslims.

    Now I"m not saying every Lefty on the West Coast feels the way I do. I know a lot of people who believe in the Democratic economic model. It tends to be more consumer friendly while the Republican model is business friendly. Obama has made student loans more affordable, has put restrictions on credit card companies, banks, and health insurance companies that are very friendly to consumers. Personally I like the fact that my child can't be denied coverage for a preexisting condition and that my grandmother can't be dropped from her coverage if she gets cancer. What kind of a person would oppose those measures, even it cost more? I like the fact that mortgage companies can't swindle people into subprime loans, and credit card companies can't jack up interest rates anymore without informing people. I'm sure CEOS and investors in these industries are very upset about Obama's policies, but I don't see how an average consumer can be.
    Last edited by Johnny DooWop; 10-29-10 at 11:08 AM.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Johnny DooWop;1059069007]Well, I live on the West Coast and I can tell you a few things: As for me, I personally agree with many Republican economic policies, and 7-8 of the 10 request in the Tea Party "contract", however the problem is they come wrapped in a package of xenophobia, jingoism, ultra-agressive neo-conservative foreign policy, dogmatic Christian principles, and a desire to still keep gays as second class citizens. Those things are equally as contradictory to the ideas are founding fathers had about the future of this country (at least the Northern ones). I think that is why a lot of "liberals" support democratic economic policies. Its the same reason why rural, poor whites support the Republican party even though their tax cuts and other policies only favor people who make over $250k a year. The poor whites don't give sh*t about the rich having tax cuts, they want gays kept as second class citizens, abortion made illegal again, marijuana to remain illegal, aggressive military policy, and hope to put someone in office who will put greater restriction on Muslims.
    It wasn't the GOP that rejected the left coast policy on gays, it was the majority of the people on the west coast. What bothers me is the stereotyping of liberals of the conservative movement and you do that based upon what you read and not what you see or only if you thought. Please tell me how tax rate cuts only affect those making over 250,000 a year? Tax rate cuts benefit EVERYONE who pays taxes. Since the rich pay most of the taxes any cuts are going to be higher but the percentage is the same. The rich are paying a lot more now in actual dollars than they where prior to the tax cut and that goes unnoticed or unreported.

    What I see from you is a desire for more freedom without the responsibility that goes with it. You want the right to an abortion, the right for gays to marry, the right to use drugs, etc but then you want the govt. to guarantee you a living or to bail you out when you make a mistake. it doesn't work that way. With freedom comes responsibility. If you want all those things then accept the responsibility when you fail.

    Now I"m not saying every Lefty on the West Coast feels the way I do. I know a lot of people who believe in the Democratic economic model. It tends to be more consumer friendly while the Republican model is business friendly. Obama has made student loans more affordable, has put restrictions on credit card companies, banks, and health insurance companies that are very friendly to consumers. Personally I like the fact that my child can't be denied coverage for a preexisting condition and that my grandmother can't be dropped from her coverage if she gets cancer. What kind of a person would oppose those measures, even it cost more? I like the fact that mortgage companies can't swindle people into subprime loans, and credit card companies can't jack up interest rates anymore without informing people. I'm sure CEOS and investors in these industries are very upset about Obama's policies, but I don't see how an average consumer can be.
    The Democratic economic model ignores incentive and human behavior. It is consumer friendly but ignores that someone has to make the product and get compensation for it. Making student loans affordable should be a state or local issues since Universities are state controlled and operated. Putting restrictions on credit card companies ignore the responsibility of individuals with their spending habits or actions. As for the health coverage issue, the issue of pre existing conditions could have been handled without this monstrosity being created that creates another massive federal bureaucracy. Healthcare is a personal responsibility not a Federal responsibility, if anything it should be handled by the states and local communities.

    In reading your post where does personal responsibility lie in anything you posted. Mortgage companies didn't swindle anyone. Do you honestly believe that someone held a gun to the head of someone who signed an adjustable rate mortgage? Did someone force you or your parents to sign on the bottomline? Do you believe that those who signed adjustable rate mortgages didn't know that rates would adjust?

    Again, I ask where does personal responsibility lie in your world?

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    $5316 per year for a couple making 80K, $13,404 for a family earning 240

    If Congress fails to act, income tax rates will revert to higher levels dating from June 2001.

    For a married couple with an income of $80,000, that would drain an extra $221.48 in withholding from a semi-monthly paycheck, according to calculations by the Tax Institute at H&R Block. Married individuals earning $240,000 a year would lose an additional $557.78 to withholding in a single semi-monthly paycheck. The Tax Institute at H&R Block calculated federal tax rates for single-income earners and married taxpayers without children.
    Employers in U.S. Start Bracing for Higher Tax Withholding - Bloomberg

    why did the party punt?

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    It wasn't the GOP that rejected the left coast policy on gays, it was the majority of the people on the west coast.
    What? Those Californians were apart of the GOP silly! And it was actually the Mormon church in Utah that funded most of the campaign for prop 8. Weeks before the election every conservative pastor in the state was giving guilt trip sermons to their congregations to go vote for it. Polls show more Californians believe gays should be able to marry, than those who do not believe. The Christian GOP boys simply got more of their people out to the polls. Are you really trying to deny that the GOP doesn't want gays to marry and doesn't want them to be in openly gay in the military? The worst thing that happened to the GOP is they let the social conservatives take over.

    As for taxes, the notion that tax cuts for the rich while increasing them for the poor somehow fixes the economy is not currently a fact, it is an opinion. I don't want to get into another big debate with you about your bea.gov facts and all of your other redundant talking points because me as well as many others on this forum have provided equally credible figures that cutting taxes for the rich does nothing for the economy. If you want to look up figures, look up one that shows the average salary of middle class people under Republican presidents vs Democratic presidents, then tell me Republicans are better for the middle class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    What I see from you is a desire for more freedom without the responsibility that goes with it. You want the right to an abortion, the right for gays to marry, the right to use drugs, etc but then you want the govt. to guarantee you a living or to bail you out when you make a mistake. it doesn't work that way.
    What the hell are you talking about? Bailouts for abortion, gay marriage, medical marijuana? ???



    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    The Democratic economic model ignores incentive and human behavior. It is consumer friendly but ignores that someone has to make the product and get compensation for it.
    Many industries face this problem, when something that is vital to our citizens is hard to produce at a profit and it is usually solved through government subsidies. Doesn't the oil industry recieve more government subsidies than any other? Why not provide subsidies to the health care industry? And as for your "personal responsbility", the whole purpose of organizations is to achieve what can't be done individually. You, supposedly being a former business man, should know that is why all organizations are formed. Getting major coroporations to adopt more consumer friendly policies can't be done by an individual, which is why people must sometimes depend on or put responisbilty in the government to get these things done.

    You complain about the Obama policies but have offered no better solutions. Your only answer is "let the states control it". What are your suggestions for the credit card industries, student loans, mortgage loans, pre existing conditions and the ability of companies to drop their patience if they get cancer?

  5. #915
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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Johnny DooWop;1059069093]What? Those Californians were apart of the GOP silly! And it was actually the Mormon church in Utah that funded most of the campaign for prop 8. Weeks before the election every conservative pastor in the state was giving guilt trip sermons to their congregations to go vote for it. Polls show more Californians believe gays should be able to marry, than those who do not believe. The Christian GOP boys simply got more of their people out to the polls. Are you really trying to deny that the GOP doesn't want gays to marry and doesn't want them to be in openly gay in the military? The worst thing that happened to the GOP is they let the social conservatives take over.
    Good Lord, man, does it matter who funded the operation? The people voted. Again, I ask you where does personal responsibility lie in your world? It doesn't matter who funds any particular program because those funding don't pull the ballot lever. Do you ever take responsibility for anything or do you just want to whine and complain when you don't get your way?

    As for taxes, the notion that tax cuts for the rich while increasing them for the poor somehow fixes the economy is not currently a fact, it is an opinion. I don't want to get into another big debate with you about your bea.gov facts and all of your other redundant talking points because me as well as many others on this forum have provided equally credible figures that cutting taxes for the rich does nothing for the economy. If you want to look up figures, look up one that shows the average salary of middle class people under Republican presidents vs Democratic presidents, then tell me Republicans are better for the middle class.
    LOL, increasing taxes on the poor? where do you get this stuff? After the Bush tax cuts 47% of the working people didn't pay any Federal Income taxes! Where were the tax increase on people who don't pay taxes?

    What continues to amaze me is the liberal rhetoric about how unfair this country is. The only thing preventing you from becoming one of those evil rich people that you seem to hate is your attitude. You want all the freedom in the world but not the responsibility that goes along with that freedom. This country was built on EQUAL Opportunity NOT EQUAL Outcome. Do you know the difference?

    What the hell are you talking about? Bailouts for abortion, gay marriage, medical marijuana? ???
    I am talking about you expecting someone else to protect you from the poor choices you make. You want abortions on demand, the right to marry whoever you want, and the legal use of drugs but when you fail financially you want someone to bail you out. You want utopia and what you got is the leftwing disaster that progressives have made of this economy.

    Many industries face this problem, when something that is vital to our citizens is hard to produce at a profit and it is usually solved through government subsidies. Doesn't the oil industry recieve more government subsidies than any other? Why not provide subsidies to the health care industry? And as for your "personal responsbility", the whole purpose of organizations is to achieve what can't be done individually. You, supposedly being a former business man, should know that is why all organizations are formed. Getting major coroporations to adopt more consumer friendly policies can't be done by an individual, which is why people must sometimes depend on or put responisbilty in the government to get these things done.
    Do you know what a subsidy really is? It is business keeping the money that they already earn instead of sending it to the govt. first. Any idea how much Federal taxes you pay on a gallon of gasoline vs. how much an oil company makes on a gallon of gasoline? Look it up

    Why should a taxpayer in TX fund the healthcare of someone in Delaware?

    Getting business to adopt a more consumer friendly policies is up to the business. Who forces you to buy from those businesses?

    You complain about the Obama policies but have offered no better solutions. Your only answer is "let the states control it". What are your suggestions for the credit card industries, student loans, mortgage loans, pre existing conditions and the ability of companies to drop their patience if they get cancer?
    I have offered many solutions but they all start with something you never will support, personal responsibility. Cut the massive size of govt. and put the power back to where it belongs, at the state level. My advice for you regarding Credit cards is don't use them or if you do use them responsibility and pay off your debt monthly. As for student loans, let the states decide not Federal Tax payer dollars to fund state student loans, mortgage loans are a personal responsibility, don't sign for a long with rates that you cannot afford. Pre existing conditions, since states control insurance companies it is up to the states to solve that issue, and the same holds true on dropping coverage.

    This country wasn't built on the principles you support and until you and others understand that you will never accept personal responsibility for anything.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    The logic and common sense of the Founders is something missing today. For some reason you and others seem to believe that social issues can be handled by a large central govt. instead of the states. For some reason you seem to be more concerned about how much money goes to the federal govt. than how they spend that money. It isn't logical to believe that a bureacrat in Washington D.C. can solve a social problem in Midland, TX but that a bureacrat in Austin, TX can and should.

    That is the logic of our founders and they were right on.
    Little common about good sense, and I don't see much good sense in much of what you present. If you spend, you ahve to pay for it. And when you have a high debt, you both seek to cut expenses and bring in more income. That's how we would handle it our lives, and it is how the government should handle it. Cut spending and raise taxes.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Good Lord, man, does it matter who funded the operation? The people voted.
    What? Stay on the issue guy. I originally said that the GOP wants to prevent gays from marrying and you tried to deny that. Now you're saying it doesn't matter? Maybe its still too early in the morning for you to be debating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    LOL, increasing taxes on the poor? where do you get this stuff?
    This is the only point you've actually made some sense on. I worded that wrong. Mccain simply wanted to middle class taxes to revert back to what they were before Bush cut them, but wanted to keep the tax cuts in for the wealthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    What continues to amaze me is the liberal rhetoric about how unfair this country is.
    Are you kidding me?!! Conservatives whine more than a new born baby!! "I pay too much taxes! Government is too big! Obama is a socialist! Muslims are taking over!" Blah blah blah whine whine whine is all I ever hear from the right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I am talking about you expecting someone else to protect you from the poor choices you make. You want abortions on demand, the right to marry whoever you want, and the legal use of drugs but when you fail financially you want someone to bail you out. You want utopia and what you got is the leftwing disaster that progressives have made of this economy.
    WTF?? When did I ever fail financially? When did anyone ever bail me out?? And even your fantasies were true, what the hell would that have to do with abortions and gay rights!! This is crazy talk. You're starting to scare me.




    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I have offered many solutions but they all start with something you never will support, personal responsibility. Cut the massive size of govt. and put the power back to where it belongs, at the state level. My advice for you regarding Credit cards is don't use them or if you do use them responsibility and pay off your debt monthly. As for student loans, let the states decide not Federal Tax payer dollars to fund state student loans, mortgage loans are a personal responsibility, don't sign for a long with rates that you cannot afford. Pre existing conditions, since states control insurance companies it is up to the states to solve that issue, and the same holds true on dropping coverage.
    Still not ONE solution. "Put in the hands of states and let them resolve the issue" is not a solution. Offer solutions or quit your whiny complaining.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Little common about good sense, and I don't see much good sense in much of what you present. If you spend, you ahve to pay for it. And when you have a high debt, you both seek to cut expenses and bring in more income. That's how we would handle it our lives, and it is how the government should handle it. Cut spending and raise taxes.
    What you ignore as usual, is this is about personal income and thus personal choice. My claim is it is better for the individual to keep more of what they earn and when they have more take home pay they have the choice what to do with it. Too much has been given to the govt for them to use what they deem necessary and has been shown fiscally irresponsible.

    We have 16 million unemployed Americans today, cut spending is a given, but lower taxes to get these 16 million back to the workforce paying taxes. One thing for sure is you are never going to get politicians to stop spending as that is the source of their power.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Johnny DooWop;1059069180]What? Stay on the issue guy. I originally said that the GOP wants to prevent gays from marrying and you tried to deny that. Now you're saying it doesn't matter? Maybe its still too early in the morning for you to be debating.
    So what is your problem? so what, the GOP wants the states to control the issue and in California the people voted supporting traditional marriage. I happen to agree, it is a state issue. I don't agree with gays marrying and would vote against it. I believe in the Defense of Marriage Act that Bill Clinton signed.


    This is the only point you've actually made some sense on. I worded that wrong. Mccain simply wanted to middle class taxes to revert back to what they were before Bush cut them, but wanted to keep the tax cuts in for the wealthy.
    It is more of an issue than that, it is about control of the money. Who is better to control the money, the individual or a bureaucrat in D.C.? The fact that liberals continue to ignore is that govt. revenue went up AFTER the Bush tax rate cuts according to the Treasury Dept. so what is your problem? Why are you so concerned about how much money individuals pay in taxes?


    Are you kidding me?!! Conservatives whine more than a new born baby!! "I pay too much taxes! Government is too big! Obama is a socialist! Muslims are taking over!" Blah blah blah whine whine whine is all I ever hear from the right.
    Facts always trump liberal rhetoric. "Your" President's record says it all.



    WTF?? When did I ever fail financially? When did anyone ever bail me out?? And even your fantasies were true, what the hell would that have to do with abortions and gay rights!! This is crazy talk. You're starting to scare me.
    I make mistakes every day and pay for those mistakes. Everything you point out is a state issue, not a Federal issue and thus should be handled locally. If you cannot get your own state to vote for the issues then it is you looking for the Federal Govt. to overturn what the citizens of the state have done.



    Still not ONE solution. "Put in the hands of states and let them resolve the issue" is not a solution. Offer solutions or quit your whiny complaining
    It indeed is a solution, you just don't like it. You don't like majority rule on anything especially when it doesn't support your point of view. The people of California voted overwhelmingly against gay marriage so the proponents went to the courts for relief. That is what liberals do when the votes of the majority are contrary to what they want. Don't give me this song and dance about freedom because the only time freedom is an issue is when it is something you support.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    What you ignore as usual, is this is about personal income and thus personal choice. My claim is it is better for the individual to keep more of what they earn and when they have more take home pay they have the choice what to do with it. Too much has been given to the govt for them to use what they deem necessary and has been shown fiscally irresponsible.

    We have 16 million unemployed Americans today, cut spending is a given, but lower taxes to get these 16 million back to the workforce paying taxes. One thing for sure is you are never going to get politicians to stop spending as that is the source of their power.
    And I keep showing you there is no evidence cutting taxes will put people back to work. None. We ahve and it has bene linked for you, evidence that taxes will not effect employment at all. So, you can't argue cut taxes to get jobs, as cutting taxes won't do that.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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