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Thread: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, I have. And I would complain about that if you weren't so willing to resort to the same tactic everyone time some one disputes you. The numbers you post don't speak to the issue. We've been over this, and you have never addressed that as best I can recall. Just posting numbers are meaningless unless you can show they speak to the issue, and that no other factors are involved. you've failed to that.
    Yes, I get over zealous at times and frustrated with you and others who never really address the issues. the numbers posted do speak to the issues because they are actual results, not projections. There are issues that generated those results but unfortunately there are a lot of people here who don't understand basic civics and the three equal branches of govt. We do not elect a king and nothing the President does can be done without the support of Congress.

    Those that blame President Bush for everything ignore the reality of Congressional Oversight. Bush and Reagan had a different direction for the country that Obama. Which direction do you believe our Founders supported, focus on the individual and private enterprise or focus on expansion of the central govt. and redistribution of wealth?

    That is a very basic question that is being ignored here. No one can say that the Obama agenda is based upon the founding fathers vision or the Constitution. Penalizing individual wealth creation is violation of the basic principles upon which this country was founded. Too bad history and civics don't seem to be a part of our education system.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny DooWop View Post
    Funny, that's the same thing people said (the crystal ball comment) when the 2008 elections were taking place I said he'd get us out of Iraq. Looks like my crystal ball worked because he ended the combat mission there. Therefore, I can logically believe he will follow through with his promises in Afghanistan. The troop surge is to suppress insurgency to a level that the Afghanis can maintain themselves. That's just basic military strategy dude.
    Hmm... is it also "basic military strategy" to tell your enemy when you're gonna pull out the troops? I guess you haven't noticed the afghan leaders already starting to chum up with the Talaban and Iran... When/if we leave the middle east, then you'll see the real fireworks begin.

    Mccain is a dinosaur who probably won't even live another decade.
    There you go with that crystal ball again...

    As for the banks, he revamped student federal loans so that it makes people like me (graduate students) easier for us to fund our educations. He made it so our credit card companies can't increase interest rates without informing us and can't increase interest rates on previous balances. Mortgage brokers have regulations that will protect us consumers from getting into dangerous loans.
    I don't need anyone to protect me from getting into a "dangerous" loan... do you? I rarely use credit cards and when I do... I pay off the balance when I get the statement.
    The only problem I have with "interest" rates is I can only get about 1-2% on short term CD's.... and practically nothing in the Money Market. Believe it or not... there was a time when I got 12-13% on CD's

    However, I can see your point on the fed loans helping with your educ. And for you those who need the other stuff... good for you.

    With our personal banks, we can now opt to have our card decline if there are insufficient funds, whether than unknowingly be charged overdraft fees.
    I thought you were a grad student? Don't they teach math at your school?


    Do you need more or are you enlightened yet?
    Not really but i'm happy for you.

    Seriously, what was Mccain going to do for the average consumer? Are you seriously defending Mccain? I don't even know many Republicans who like Mccain!
    I don't recall saying anything about Mccain in my post to you.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Yes, I get over zealous at times and frustrated with you and others who never really address the issues. the numbers posted do speak to the issues because they are actual results, not projections. There are issues that generated those results but unfortunately there are a lot of people here who don't understand basic civics and the three equal branches of govt. We do not elect a king and nothing the President does can be done without the support of Congress.

    Those that blame President Bush for everything ignore the reality of Congressional Oversight. Bush and Reagan had a different direction for the country that Obama. Which direction do you believe our Founders supported, focus on the individual and private enterprise or focus on expansion of the central govt. and redistribution of wealth?

    That is a very basic question that is being ignored here. No one can say that the Obama agenda is based upon the founding fathers vision or the Constitution. Penalizing individual wealth creation is violation of the basic principles upon which this country was founded. Too bad history and civics don't seem to be a part of our education system.
    No, they area set of numbers, but ehy don't support you. Remember we have tax cuts in place right now. your very numbers show right now, with them in place, things are not as good. You rightly say other factors are involved, which supports exactly what I'm telling you. Other factors are involved.

    I also point to other times and history, and not just your selective effort. You don't address that.

    As for your central question, that's actually a new question you're throwing out and too generalized to actually answer. We certainly know that the founding fathers did use government to tackle larger problems. What they did was dispurse the power in order to supply checks and balances, and to make radical change difficult. Not impossible. They were wise enough to see that things could change, that they could not know the future.

    And btw, history and civic are part of our educational system. So is government.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    =Boo Radley;1059066870]No, they area set of numbers, but ehy don't support you. Remember we have tax cuts in place right now. your very numbers show right now, with them in place, things are not as good. You rightly say other factors are involved, which supports exactly what I'm telling you. Other factors are involved.
    I never said other factors weren't involved only that tax cuts put more money into the individual's pocket and that continues to happen today. The problem today is that business doesn't have a clue what the Obama agenda is going to cost them. Right now their taxes go up January 1 and they don't know what Obamacare is going to cost. Business wants certainty but in the meantime keep pocketing more of your own money because you are going to need it. Business will NOT hire under these circumstances.

    I also point to other times and history, and not just your selective effort. You don't address that.
    What you continue to ignore is human behavior. Please tell me why you have a problem with people keeping more of what they earn? Tell me why the left is so concerned about that reality?

    As for your central question, that's actually a new question you're throwing out and too generalized to actually answer. We certainly know that the founding fathers did use government to tackle larger problems. What they did was dispurse the power in order to supply checks and balances, and to make radical change difficult. Not impossible. They were wise enough to see that things could change, that they could not know the future.
    What larger problems did our Founders use Central govt. to tackle? Defense? Yep, that is in the Constitution

    Our founders knew that central power corrupts and that is what we have today. They gave the power to the people at the local level and that is the battle today, between those that want a strong central govt. and those that believe it belongs at the state and local level. I am in the latter camp. Unfortunately there are millions in the former because they have become dependent on the power brokers in D.C. for their very existence. The powerful elite are fighting hard to keep people dependent and that gives them power. There is so much duplication at the Federal and State levels and the battle brewing is to determine which item belongs where. More money in individual hands means less need for all that so called federal help.

    And btw, history and civic are part of our educational system. So is government.
    Trouble is history is being revised not taught and civics is being ignored IMO. No one can blame the President alone for all the problems if they truly understood history and no one could support this massive expansion of the Federal Govt. if they understood history.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Then your numbers are meaningless. Putting more money into individal pockets sugegsts we look at individuals. For most, the number is so small, it doesn't really make much of a difference. Only for the wealthy, who benefit most, is the number large enough to make any real difference, and the numbers say they don';t spend it and they don't create jobs with it. And as we look at history, all of our hsitroy, we see that the economy, effected by factors other than taxes, does well with a high tax base, and poorly. And does poor with a low tax base, and well. So, in this debate, concerned with the economy, if your going to kppe presenting those numbers as evidence, you have to show why they have meaning. And if you're going to drop those numbers and try to make some folksy argyument about more monmey in the pockets, you have show some numbers to support that jobs will be created from this, and the latest effort at addressing that say tax cuts won't create jobs.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Trouble is history is being revised not taught and civics is being ignored IMO. No one can blame the President alone for all the problems if they truly understood history and no one could support this massive expansion of the Federal Govt. if they understood history.
    No, it's being taught. It may be more honest (though not completely honest) than it was when you were a kid, but it is being taught. Some just like the old propaganda more than they like actual history.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, they area set of numbers, but ehy don't support you. Remember we have tax cuts in place right now. your very numbers show right now, with them in place, things are not as good. You rightly say other factors are involved, which supports exactly what I'm telling you. Other factors are involved.

    I also point to other times and history, and not just your selective effort. You don't address that.

    As for your central question, that's actually a new question you're throwing out and too generalized to actually answer. We certainly know that the founding fathers did use government to tackle larger problems. What they did was dispurse the power in order to supply checks and balances, and to make radical change difficult. Not impossible. They were wise enough to see that things could change, that they could not know the future.

    And btw, history and civic are part of our educational system. So is government.
    The numbers don't lie and they do support Conservatives arguement. I find it hilarious that a liberal would compare anything about this administration to the founding fathers. Franklin, Washington, Adams, Jefferson... et al would be insulted and appalled by any comparision between [most of] what they stood for and believed versus what's happening in Washington today.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Then your numbers are meaningless. Putting more money into individal pockets sugegsts we look at individuals. For most, the number is so small, it doesn't really make much of a difference. Only for the wealthy, who benefit most, is the number large enough to make any real difference, and the numbers say they don';t spend it and they don't create jobs with it. And as we look at history, all of our hsitroy, we see that the economy, effected by factors other than taxes, does well with a high tax base, and poorly. And does poor with a low tax base, and well. So, in this debate, concerned with the economy, if your going to kppe presenting those numbers as evidence, you have to show why they have meaning. And if you're going to drop those numbers and try to make some folksy argyument about more monmey in the pockets, you have show some numbers to support that jobs will be created from this, and the latest effort at addressing that say tax cuts won't create jobs.
    LOL, suggesting that people keeping more of their money IS focusing on the individual because it is the individuals that make up the country. Individuals with more of their money give them control vs. politicians. People with more money give more to charities and need less of that govt. help. The liberals are scared to death of people keeping more of what they earn because that means they need less of that so called help.

    It is only possible to show what happened and up to the individual to tie the two together. No one can explain why when tax rates were implemented that govt. revenue went up as did employment. Now I believe there is a correlation whereas you don't. the positives however outweigh any negatives you claim. There is no negative to people keeping more of what they earn regardless of what you and others believe. You have yet to prove any negative.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Obamanator View Post
    The numbers don't lie and they do support Conservatives arguement. I find it hilarious that a liberal would compare anything about this administration to the founding fathers. Franklin, Washington, Adams, Jefferson... et al would be insulted and appalled by any comparision between [most of] what they stood for and believed versus what's happening in Washington today.
    No, numbers lie all the time. There's a reason why Mark twian said "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

    And while I do wish the foundering fathers were here, faced with today's problems. We both might be surprised that our misconceptions said more about our flaws than their stance. I other words, we may be wrong about what they would do.

    However, I spoke to history of numbers. I spoke to economic perfomrance regardless of the tax rate.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    LOL, suggesting that people keeping more of their money IS focusing on the individual because it is the individuals that make up the country. Individuals with more of their money give them control vs. politicians. People with more money give more to charities and need less of that govt. help. The liberals are scared to death of people keeping more of what they earn because that means they need less of that so called help.

    It is only possible to show what happened and up to the individual to tie the two together. No one can explain why when tax rates were implemented that govt. revenue went up as did employment. Now I believe there is a correlation whereas you don't. the positives however outweigh any negatives you claim. There is no negative to people keeping more of what they earn regardless of what you and others believe. You have yet to prove any negative.
    I thought I made clear that by focusing In mean focusing your numerical research on. What do they do and what little money they get, and how does it factually effect the economy. Not what you or others think it does. But what can you show?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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