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Thread: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's not true. Some say that. Some you agree with. But others say it will have no effect at all.
    yeah, the others must be the ones you agree with is that right?


    So, that's why I keep asking for any historical evidence that shows tax cuts work to stimulate the economy, or that it effects the economy at all.
    I suggest you refer to the capital gains cuts that Reagan made in the wake of destruction left him by the Carter administration.


    When the economy was doing well, we were at the higher tax rate. The eoconmy went south with the tax cuts in place. So, I'm not convinced tax cuts maen anythign at all concerning the economy.
    Then please explain to me why it is that when we see tax rates go up we read of receipts go down, and vice versa?

    Yes, when a bias reader anaylises it, then that bais is transfered to the analysis. So, when you read the American non-thinker, their ananylsis would never ever say it was a good thing.
    Who said I was basing my discussion today on anything from the American Thinker? That would be you obfuscating.

    Instead, you need something more objective.
    I have requested repeatedly for you to give me a list of accepted sources by you, however when ever I use a source, what I find is that if it disagrees with you, you then dismiss it as opinion, or bias, or anything other than addressing what it talks about to continue your DNC far left tripe. So have out with it Joe, name the sources that you want, or start arguing the fact presented you, this other tactic is beneath you.

    Not that you have to like the bill, but hyperbolic nonsense doesn't work as an argument that will convince anyone actually trying to figure it out. Such is only something the biased partisan can praise.
    That's rich...So I have to argue my case from a box that only you approve of, using language that only you approve of, and anything that is actually in the bill that is written in vague language, or could be destructive but isn't only because it hasn't taken effect yet can not be used is that it?

    IOW, agree or be quiet.....Nice.


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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Then please explain to me why it is that when we see tax rates go up we read of receipts go down, and vice versa?
    While a different measurement, we really don't. People have addressed this elsewhere.


    Who said I was basing my discussion today on anything from the American Thinker? That would be you obfuscating.
    It was an example. But, you tend to pick a conservative and say they said so. You rarely, if ever, present anything factual to assess.



    I have requested repeatedly for you to give me a list of accepted sources by you, however when ever I use a source, what I find is that if it disagrees with you, you then dismiss it as opinion, or bias, or anything other than addressing what it talks about to continue your DNC far left tripe. So have out with it Joe, name the sources that you want, or start arguing the fact presented you, this other tactic is beneath you.
    I gave you list. But it isn't that hard. Mainstream with a history of being accurate.

    That's rich...So I have to argue my case from a box that only you approve of, using language that only you approve of, and anything that is actually in the bill that is written in vague language, or could be destructive but isn't only because it hasn't taken effect yet can not be used is that it?
    IOW, agree or be quiet.....Nice.


    j-mac
    Odd that you see being reasonable as being boxed in. That using facts, and honesty is an intrusion. I'm sorry, but nonsense like your side too often pushes shold never be treated equal to honest factual debate. Sorry.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    While a different measurement, we really don't. People have addressed this elsewhere.
    We are talking about it now, stop obfuscating. Present your side of concede you have nothing.

    It was an example. But, you tend to pick a conservative and say they said so. You rarely, if ever, present anything factual to assess.
    Well, I could say that you wouldn't recognize a fact if it bit you, but instead I will only observe that "facts" to you seem to be in the realm of that which agrees with you. Anything else is dismissed.

    I gave you list.
    You did? Where? I may have missed it due to me going off to work of something.

    But it isn't that hard. Mainstream with a history of being accurate.
    And whom determines accuracy? You?

    Odd that you see being reasonable as being boxed in.
    You think yourself as reasonable?

    That using facts, and honesty is an intrusion.
    Now you're just making **** up.

    I'm sorry, but nonsense like your side too often pushes shold never be treated equal to honest factual debate. Sorry.
    My side? What side is that Joe? "Honest and factual" debate? Could you lay out some of your documented honesty, and facts here...I rarely see you post links anymore.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well, I could say that you wouldn't recognize a fact if it bit you, but instead I will only observe that "facts" to you seem to be in the realm of that which agrees with you. Anything else is dismissed.
    J, I have shown historical information. There is no evidence tax cuts help the economy. the economy was doing well at the higher tax rate and went south with the Bush tax cuts in place. Go back though history and you will find no conclusive evidence showing tax cuts matter at all.


    You did? Where? I may have missed it due to me going off to work of something.
    Go back to the places you asked, and I'm sure you will find it.

    And whom determines accuracy? You?
    No, accuracy determines accuracy. This isn't rocket science j.

    You think yourself as reasonable?
    Mostly.

    Now you're just making **** up.
    J, that's what I asked for and you complained it wasn't fair.

    My side? What side is that Joe? "Honest and factual" debate? Could you lay out some of your documented honesty, and facts here...I rarely see you post links anymore.

    j-mac
    J, I've laid them out many times. Be specific and I'll lay them out again. We've seen the study showing tax cuts would not create jobs. We've seen the historical information on tax cuts and the economy, no correlation or causation. It's all been laid out many times.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    As I have argued for many years one should never judge a book by its cover, and people are not necessarily as dumb as they look, further more, one should never assume the guilt by association mantra, as it turns out all Democrats are not beyond hope.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    J, I have shown historical information. There is no evidence tax cuts help the economy.
    Really? then explain this from June:

    June 18 (Bloomberg) -- Japanís government pledged to cut the nationís tax on businesses and nurture the environment and health care industries as part of a plan to defeat deflation and end two decades of economic stagnation.

    Japan Aims to Cut Company Tax to Spur Economic Growth (Update1) - BusinessWeek
    Investment analyst Linda Traynham in her opinion writes:

    It simply is not possible to tax the profits of businesses because the increases are always passed on through higher prices, reduced quality, reduced quantity, or some combination of the three. Idled capacity and the increased hiring that required would be very expensive if the economy is not significantly better five quarters from now, and it isnít going to be if taxes and regulations continue to grow.

    What Won’t Spur Economic Growth? | the Mesh Report
    Then there is the NYTimes, are they wrong as well Joe?

    Republicans, and a few Democrats, assert that the Bush tax cuts should be extended for everyone, warning that a tax increase right now, even if limited to the highest income bracket, would hurt small businesses and choke off an economic recovery that is already gasping.

    Given the economyís persistent weakness and an unemployment rate hovering above 9.5 percent, those arguments have gained traction. And because another round of government stimulus spending is considered politically unviable even if it were warranted, the debate over the tax cuts will be laced with promises to spur economic activity and reduce unemployment.

    News Headlines
    No, I think you are quickly placing yourself in the group that so wants Keynesian models, and redistribution from the wealthy down, that you are willing to ignore the basics of economics.

    We've seen the study showing tax cuts would not create jobs.
    What studies are these, can you post them for scrutiny? Or will you just jab some more and denounce anything outside your view as nutty?

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And I will likely agree with that recommendation. But if we can't even agree on the top 2%, what chance do those recommendations have of being implimented?
    All I am saying that it would make sense to do this thing as a package. This will insure that there is some balance. Also we do not know what exactly this committee will recommend. For all I know they will say that there should be another level of taxes for people over $5 million at a 60% rate. Ot they recommend a VAT tax, etc.

    So we are two months from the date the president set for these folks to report out. We do not even have a budget for 2010-2011 yet.

    I would like to see the comittee's recommendations voted like the base closings staight up or down. The process gets screwed up by changing tax policy before the vote.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Really? then explain this from June:
    Explain what? Agian, you did not give historical information or factual information, but instead said if they SAY this, it must be so.



    Investment analyst Linda Traynham in her opinion writes:

    Again, opinion. Where's the evidence to support the opinion?

    Then there is the NYTimes, are they wrong as well Joe?
    This only states that the argument has gained traction. Again, no factual evidence to support that it effects the economy.


    No, I think you are quickly placing yourself in the group that so wants Keynesian models, and redistribution from the wealthy down, that you are willing to ignore the basics of economics.
    I know asking for factual evidence means you place people in boxes. So, don't let anything stop you. But, you have not given factual information.



    What studies are these, can you post them for scrutiny? Or will you just jab some more and denounce anything outside your view as nutty?

    j-mac
    If you look, there's even a thread on one such study.

    Tax breaks aren't a good way to create jobs.

    That's the central point of a study released this week by the backers of Proposition 24, a state ballot initiative that would roll back three business tax breaks approved by the Legislature in 2008 and 2009.

    Study: Tax breaks hurt, don't help - DailyBulletin.com

    (1) In a 2002 article in the National Tax Journal by William Gale and Samara Potter concluded that the Bush tax cuts reduced the size of the economy. As we have stressed in these posts, the distinction between debt-financed and budget-neutral tax cuts is crucial:


    Our results do not show that reductions in tax rates have no effect, or negative effects on economic behavior. Rather, the improved incentives--analyzed in isolation--unambiguously increase economic activity, by raising labor supply, human capital, and private saving. Indeed, these factors raise the size of the economy by almost 1 percent. But [the 2001 tax cut] is a set of incentives-- financed by a reduction in public saving. The key point for understanding the growth effects is that the tax-induced increase in private saving is a only a small faction of the decline in public saving, so that [overall] national saving falls substantially. The decline in national saving reduces the capital stock, even after adjusting for international capital flows, by sufficient amounts to reduce GDP and GNP.

    tax.com: Tax Cuts Kill Jobs, Part 2

    Similarly, a series of tax cuts in 2003 fell far short of targeted job growth. The Bush administration claimed the tax cuts would create 1.4 million jobs, in addition to some 4.1 million jobs expected to be generated over an 18-month period. But EPI tracked the initiative and found that not only did the additional 1.4 million jobs not appear, but the 4.1 million jobs that had been expected without the tax cuts never materialized either. By the end, the economy only saw an additional 2.4 million jobs added to the economy.

    Tax cuts won’t create jobs

    From your article:

    The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office this year analyzed the short-term effects of 11 policy options and found that extending the tax cuts would be the least effective way to spur the economy and reduce unemployment. The report added that tax cuts for high earners would have the smallest “bang for the buck,” because wealthy Americans were more likely to save their money than spend it.

    News Headlines

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley
    We've seen the study showing tax cuts would not create jobs.
    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What studies are these, can you post them for scrutiny? Or will you just jab some more and denounce anything outside your view as nutty?

    j-mac
    Technically, he's not completely incorrect...
    Sales tax cut would create 27,199 jobs, study says - The Boston Globe
    The proposed sales tax cut on the Nov. 2 ballot would create 27,199 private-sector jobs, increase annual investment by $73 million, and raise wages by $1.03 billion, according to a new study.
    However, it goes on to say...

    Beacon Hill Institute officials said the modeling they used in their analysis determined that the revenue loss to government from the sales tax cut would require the public sector to shed 9,885 jobs.
    So, the study shows a net increase of over 17,000 jobs.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    All I am saying that it would make sense to do this thing as a package. This will insure that there is some balance. Also we do not know what exactly this committee will recommend. For all I know they will say that there should be another level of taxes for people over $5 million at a 60% rate. Ot they recommend a VAT tax, etc.

    So we are two months from the date the president set for these folks to report out. We do not even have a budget for 2010-2011 yet.

    I would like to see the comittee's recommendations voted like the base closings staight up or down. The process gets screwed up by changing tax policy before the vote.
    I have no argument aganst doing it as a package. That would work well for me. And will support anyone calling for both. But I won't give up one for the other or because we don't have the other yet.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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