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Thread: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    I would agree with you if getting a handle on our deficit was the main reason for this tax increase. As you know there is a deficit commission set up by the president due to release their findings in december. The expectation is that they will recommend both spending cuts and tax increases.

    Thus this current debate about the top 2% etc. is just politics hoping to find an issue to run on for the next two weeks.
    And I will likely agree with that recommendation. But if we can't even agree on the top 2%, what chance do those recommendations have of being implimented?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Perhaps if the Democrats actually made attempts OTHER than simply taxing the rich to deal with the deficits...reforming social security, cutting luxury spending, looking at across the board taxes...people may be more willing to get on board or buy it. However since they're doing the same thing they've been trying to do throughout the entirity of George Bush and Obama's administrations and are just now using a different excuse why the hell should anyone buy that excuse as being truthful?

    They've been bitching about the "tax cuts for the rich" since 2001 but only recently have "we need to do it for the deficits" been the main call for it. When they're not doing a damn thing anywhere else to fight it it calls into question their honesty in their stated reasons.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Perhaps if the Democrats actually made attempts OTHER than simply taxing the rich to deal with the deficits...reforming social security, cutting luxury spending, looking at across the board taxes...people may be more willing to get on board or buy it. However since they're doing the same thing they've been trying to do throughout the entirity of George Bush and Obama's administrations and are just now using a different excuse why the hell should anyone buy that excuse as being truthful?

    They've been bitching about the "tax cuts for the rich" since 2001 but only recently have "we need to do it for the deficits" been the main call for it. When they're not doing a damn thing anywhere else to fight it it calls into question their honesty in their stated reasons.
    Kind of like wishing republicans would come up with more than tax cuts. but, that is the burden we're left with. I suggest we ask both tackle it realisitically and responsibly. Cut spending and raise taxes. This would be a responsble way to tackle IMHO.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Even if you're right, it's nothing more than speculation. And frankly, a rather skewed speculation based on a specific bias. What we have is what is before us. Slippery slope arguments are fallacies for a reason, and should be treated as such.
    Maybe, but the term shouldn't be used as a tool to dismiss concerns either. So let's see, if I read you correctly you are trying to say that my analysis of the 2,800 page health care bill is based on specific bias, and even though it is passed, and signed into law right now, we don't know exactly what is in it, so we can't complain about what we do know is in it that is already having destructive consequences on the economy?

    Would you say that businesses that are reading this law, and now asking for waivers, and holding off on hiring are also misinformed?

    j-mac
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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Kind of like wishing republicans would come up with more than tax cuts. but, that is the burden we're left with. I suggest we ask both tackle it realisitically and responsibly. Cut spending and raise taxes. This would be a responsble way to tackle IMHO.
    Responsible economists are all saying that any tax increase at this time would be destructive to an already fragile economy.


    j-mac
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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Kind of like wishing republicans would come up with more than tax cuts. but, that is the burden we're left with. I suggest we ask both tackle it realisitically and responsibly. Cut spending and raise taxes. This would be a responsble way to tackle IMHO.
    Responsible economists are all saying that any tax increase at this time would be destructive to an already fragile economy.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Responsible economists are all saying that any tax increase at this time would be destructive to an already fragile economy.


    j-mac
    That's not true. Some say that. Some you agree with. But others say it will have no effect at all. So, that's why I keep asking for any historical evidence that shows tax cuts work to stimulate the economy, or that it effects the economy at all. When the economy was doing well, we were at the higher tax rate. The eoconmy went south with the tax cuts in place. So, I'm not convinced tax cuts maen anythign at all concerning the economy.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Maybe, but the term shouldn't be used as a tool to dismiss concerns either. So let's see, if I read you correctly you are trying to say that my analysis of the 2,800 page health care bill is based on specific bias, and even though it is passed, and signed into law right now, we don't know exactly what is in it, so we can't complain about what we do know is in it that is already having destructive consequences on the economy?

    Would you say that businesses that are reading this law, and now asking for waivers, and holding off on hiring are also misinformed?

    j-mac
    Yes, when a bias reader anaylises it, then that bais is transfered to the analysis. So, when you read the American non-thinker, their ananylsis would never ever say it was a good thing. Even if it was demonstratively a perfect bill, such would never be a part of their analysis. Instead, you need something more objective. And you need to be factual. Not that you have to like the bill, but hyperbolic nonsense doesn't work as an argument that will convince anyone actually trying to figure it out. Such is only something the biased partisan can praise.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    When the economy was doing well, we were at the higher tax rate. The eoconmy went south with the tax cuts in place.
    Correlation doesn't equal causation.

    During the economic boom of the 90's you had relatively little true "wars". You had the tech boom spurring entrepenurism, the technology sector, and access to goods. At the same time technology hadn't advanced to the point it is in the 2000's that makes outsourcing so much easier and more efficient then it did then. You also had for the majority of the 90's during the boom a Republican congress rather than a Democrat one, forcing much more restraint on the part of the government as you had a legitimate check and balance of ideology with the Dem Pres/Rep Congress. The housing boom was just beginning to the end rather than being at the end of the bubble. You didn't have a massive and gigantic terrorist attack on our financial center of the US.

    And I can go on and on.

    Its absolutely ignorant to simply look at the 90's and look at the 00's and go "Taxes raised in 90s, economy good. Taxes lower in 00's, economy bad. It must be taxes".

    The Cowboys were highly successful in the 90's, the Patriots were in the 00's. The Cowboys were "America's Team", seemingly representing "the people", and their success increased the attitude and happiness of Americans thus spending more and spurring the economy. The Patriots, with their cheating coach and super model quarter back, represented elitism and ivory towers. People dislike them and their winning ways depressed America, causing spending to slow, consumer confidence to plummet, and the economy to tank. Since when the economy was doing well, we had the Cowboys winning. The eoconmy went south with the Patriots winning. So, I'm not convinced that who wins the most superbowls in a decade doesn't mean anything concerning the economy.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Correlation doesn't equal causation.

    During the economic boom of the 90's you had relatively little true "wars". You had the tech boom spurring entrepenurism, the technology sector, and access to goods. At the same time technology hadn't advanced to the point it is in the 2000's that makes outsourcing so much easier and more efficient then it did then. You also had for the majority of the 90's during the boom a Republican congress rather than a Democrat one, forcing much more restraint on the part of the government as you had a legitimate check and balance of ideology with the Dem Pres/Rep Congress. The housing boom was just beginning to the end rather than being at the end of the bubble. You didn't have a massive and gigantic terrorist attack on our financial center of the US.

    And I can go on and on.

    Its absolutely ignorant to simply look at the 90's and look at the 00's and go "Taxes raised in 90s, economy good. Taxes lower in 00's, economy bad. It must be taxes".

    The Cowboys were highly successful in the 90's, the Patriots were in the 00's. The Cowboys were "America's Team", seemingly representing "the people", and their success increased the attitude and happiness of Americans thus spending more and spurring the economy. The Patriots, with their cheating coach and super model quarter back, represented elitism and ivory towers. People dislike them and their winning ways depressed America, causing spending to slow, consumer confidence to plummet, and the economy to tank. Since when the economy was doing well, we had the Cowboys winning. The eoconmy went south with the Patriots winning. So, I'm not convinced that who wins the most superbowls in a decade doesn't mean anything concerning the economy.
    If you're areading me clearly, I'm saying there is a causation. I'm saying there is little to evidence to support that tax cuts effect the economy or hiring. And we can look back throughout our histroy and see that we've had a good economy with a high tax base, and with a low tax base; a poor economy with a low tax base and with a high tax base.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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