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More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

Moderator's Warning:
Guys, let's calm this down a bit.
 
Conservative said:
As stated, after the tax cuts jobs were created. That is a proven fact.
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What is a fact is that there was at least one case where a tax cut preceded an increase in jobs. It is not a proven fact that all tax cuts are followed by increases in jobs. The data for the relationship between income tax cuts and job creation shows them to be highly uncorrelated. Other kinds of tax cuts seem to have more impact than income taxes in terms of job creation.
 
Boo Radley said:
Read slower. Not due to tax cuts. You have those tax cuts in place right now, and yet jobs were lost. We have history to show other times with other tax cuts and the economy did not improve. We have studies showing that tax cuts do not create jobs. Slow down, read slowly, think about it, address the rebuttal. ;)
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I totally understand, people keeping more of their money and deciding how to spend it doesn't impact our GDP, got it. Higher GDP doesn't mean more jobs, got it! Higher demand doesn't increase jobs, got it!

What we have now is the threat of increased taxes and no one knows how much Obamacare will cost. As a business person would you hire more people now? in the meantime the people that are working have more take home pay. That is a good thing.
 
zip98053 said:
What is a fact is that there was at least one case where a tax cut preceded an increase in jobs. It is not a proven fact that all tax cuts are followed by increases in jobs. The data for the relationship between income tax cuts and job creation shows them to be highly uncorrelated. Other kinds of tax cuts seem to have more impact than income taxes in terms of job creation.
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When I talk tax cuts I mean rate cuts and that has only happened 4 times in the last 70 years including JFK, Reagan, and GW Bush.
 
Boo Radley said:
Read slower. Not due to tax cuts. You have those tax cuts in place right now, and yet jobs were lost. We have history to show other times with other tax cuts and the economy did not improve. We have studies showing that tax cuts do not create jobs. Slow down, read slowly, think about it, address the rebuttal. ;)
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Jobs are being lost in droves because business doesn't do well in uncertain times. Obama is on a spending binge like never seen. He's about to hit them with unknown additional tax burdens due to his healthcare bill and God only knows what else he's got in store for them.

After the 2006 elections when Democrats made big gains, and again in 2008, business started running for the hills. Once businesses feels comfortable again about the environment they're operating in, jobs will start to return.
 
Erod said:
Jobs are being lost in droves because business doesn't do well in uncertain times. Obama is on a spending binge like never seen. He's about to hit them with unknown additional tax burdens due to his healthcare bill and God only knows what else he's got in store for them.

After the 2006 elections when Democrats made big gains, and again in 2008, business started running for the hills. Once businesses feels comfortable again about the environment they're operating in, jobs will start to return.
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Even if true, taxes don't change that. But, mostly, what you blame for uncertainty is false. The concern of business is customers and sales. All other things will be handled if there are customers and sales. They don't make business decisions concerning employment based on which party is in office. Hell, both parties work for them. From their point of view, there's not really much difference. Business will feel comfortable when people start spending their money.
 
Erod said:
Once businesses feels comfortable again about the environment they're operating in, jobs will start to return.
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Hmmm, so the lack of jobs in our Great Recession is not due to the economic chaos the housing bubble/burst caused but is instead due to Democrats in congress weakening investor confidence? Interesting. I certainly haven't heard that one yet.

As for healthcare, how would you recommend fixing the issues, such as little kids not being able to get insured with preexisting conditions and companies dropping policies holders who develop cancer, without it costing more money?
 
Conservative said:
I totally understand, people keeping more of their money and deciding how to spend it doesn't impact our GDP, got it. Higher GDP doesn't mean more jobs, got it! Higher demand doesn't increase jobs, got it!

What we have now is the threat of increased taxes and no one knows how much Obamacare will cost. As a business person would you hire more people now? in the meantime the people that are working have more take home pay. That is a good thing.
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Obama care may well cost less. We'll see, but you're changing the subject again. This is about taxes create jobs.
 
Boo Radley said:
Even if true, taxes don't change that. But, mostly, what you blame for uncertainty is false. The concern of business is customers and sales. All other things will be handled if there are customers and sales. They don't make business decisions concerning employment based on which party is in office. Hell, both parties work for them. From their point of view, there's not really much difference. Business will feel comfortable when people start spending their money.
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You are right, raising taxes gives people incentive to spend more money.
 
Conservative said:
Wonder why liberals don't send more of their own money to D.C. instead of forcing others to do it. You think the govt. needs the money more than the individual? Prove it, send more of yours instead of just what is required.
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I do send more than is required. And in some cases, the government does need the money more than the individual. How does an individual pay for law enforcement? I don't think that having each person pay tuition for their child would be in the best interests of the country because not everyone would be able to afford the tuition. I don't think that it is practical to have a toll on every road that I travel and having the government collect taxes and pay for that road for all of us to use is a good thing. The government should make sure that companies are not poisoning me with bad products or pollution. I can go on, but I don't think it will influence your thinking on this subject.
 
Conservative said:
You are right, raising taxes gives people incentive to spend more money.
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For most, there won't be enough to have any effect at all. And business won't ever see enough of a cut or increase to make them do anything.
 
zip98053 said:
I do send more than is required. And in some cases, the government does need the money more than the individual. How does an individual pay for law enforcement? I don't think that having each person pay tuition for their child would be in the best interests of the country because not everyone would be able to afford the tuition. I don't think that it is practical to have a toll on every road that I travel and having the government collect taxes and pay for that road for all of us to use is a good thing. The government should make sure that companies are not poisoning me with bad products or pollution. I can go on, but I don't think it will influence your thinking on this subject.
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Individuals pay for law enforcement with their local taxes, not the Federal Taxes. Children pay tuition to their local schools not the Federal Govt. local Schools are paid for by property taxes which are local, not Federal. Toll roads fund highways just like the excise taxes on your gasoline and diesel fuel.

What would influence my thinking would be providing actual facts as to where the federal dollars go and how much waste, fraud, and abuse there is in that spending.
 
Conservative said:
Wonder why liberals don't send more of their own money to D.C. instead of forcing others to do it. You think the govt. needs the money more than the individual? Prove it, send more of yours instead of just what is required.
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I could've sworn Obama, Pelosi and Reid all pay taxes. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
Boo Radley said:
Even if true, taxes don't change that. But, mostly, what you blame for uncertainty is false. The concern of business is customers and sales. All other things will be handled if there are customers and sales. They don't make business decisions concerning employment based on which party is in office. Hell, both parties work for them. From their point of view, there's not really much difference. Business will feel comfortable when people start spending their money.
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I disagree completely. Companies operate on margin. Risk and expansion is based almost solely on being able to project maintaining within a certain margin. Margin is affected greatly by taxes, as well as other factors like sales, operating expenses, the financial condition of associated partners (companies), etc.

If you raise taxes, you affect all areas that ultimately can effect margin. Once risk is unacceptable based on the margin of return, you cut costs and labor. If those tax burdens are expected to possibly increase, you prepare for further cuts.

That's where we are. That's EXACTLY how my company has operated the past three years. And given, at the very least, a gridlocked governement that can't throw new surprises at us, we're preparing to start investing and expanding once again.
 
Boo Radley said:
For most, there won't be enough to have any effect at all. And business won't ever see enough of a cut or increase to make them do anything.
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Thank you for your expert opinion on running a business and how business owners operate. You also seem to be an expert on consumer spending and what consumers do when they get to keep more of their own money. What you give here is your personal opinion based upon never running your own business and apparently never looking at your own paycheck to see if there was more or less money in it thus it doesn't matter to you so you spend regardless of what is in it. Wonder if you really believe you are like the average American?
 
Conservative said:
Individuals pay for law enforcement with their local taxes, not the Federal Taxes.
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Last I checked FBI, DEA, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, Department of Homeland Security, ATF, Federal Bureau of Prisons, Secret Service are all paid for with Federal taxes.
 
Johnny DooWop said:
I could've sworn Obama, Pelosi and Reid all pay taxes. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Yep, they pay taxes, what is your point. All three are multi, multi millionaires who seem to have forgotten what it was like on the other end.
 
Johnny DooWop said:
Last I checked FBI, DEA, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, Department of Homeland Security, ATF, Federal Bureau of Prisons, Secret Service are all paid for with Federal taxes.
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Yep, and none of them are involved in local law enforcement, that would be the police and fire departments.
 
Erod said:
I disagree completely. Companies operate on margin. Risk and expansion is based almost solely on being able to project maintaining within a certain margin. Margin is affected greatly by taxes, as well as other factors like sales, operating expenses, the financial condition of associated partners (companies), etc.

If you raise taxes, you affect all areas that ultimately can effect margin. Once risk is unacceptable based on the margin of return, you cut costs and labor. If those tax burdens are expected to possibly increase, you prepare for further cuts.

That's where we are. That's EXACTLY how my company has operated the past three years. And given, at the very least, a gridlocked governement that can't throw new surprises at us, we're preparing to start investing and expanding once again.
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And when they project, the most important factor is how much they can sell and how much porfit they are liely to bring in. Taxes, as they are part of business and change from time to time, have a much smaller effect. Especially individual taxes. You could eliminate all buisiness taxes, and if they could get cheaper labor in Mexico, they would still go to Mexico. You could cut all taxes, and if people weren't buying, business would still nto invest. You could increase taxes, and if the labor was cheaper here, they would still stay here. You could increase taxes a lot, and if their product was selling and people were spending, business would hire and move on.

We also have studies that clearly show taxes have no real effect on jobs. One just came out recently saying a tax cut would not create jobs. And a tax increase would not cost jobs.
 
Conservative said:
Thank you for your expert opinion on running a business and how business owners operate. You also seem to be an expert on consumer spending and what consumers do when they get to keep more of their own money. What you give here is your personal opinion based upon never running your own business and apparently never looking at your own paycheck to see if there was more or less money in it thus it doesn't matter to you so you spend regardless of what is in it. Wonder if you really believe you are like the average American?
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I read. ;)
 
Conservative said:
Yep, they pay taxes, what is your point. All three are multi, multi millionaires who seem to have forgotten what it was like on the other end.
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Here we ago again. Your statement is proven wrong and you can only respond with "what's your point?" LOL!

Conservative said:
Wonder why liberals don't send more of their own money to D.C. instead of forcing others to do it. You think the govt. needs the money more than the individual? Prove it, send more of yours instead of just what is required.
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That's my point.
 
Conservative said:
Yep, and none of them are involved in local law enforcement, that would be the police and fire departments.
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zip98053 said:
How does an individual pay for law enforcement?
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That was the question. The individual said nothing about local. Come on guys, lets keep up with the issues.
 
Boo Radley said:
And when they project, the most important factor is how much they can sell and how much porfit they are liely to bring in. Taxes, as they are part of business and change from time to time, have a much smaller effect. Especially individual taxes. You could eliminate all buisiness taxes, and if they could get cheaper labor in Mexico, they would still go to Mexico. You could cut all taxes, and if people weren't buying, business would still nto invest. You could increase taxes, and if the labor was cheaper here, they would still stay here. You could increase taxes a lot, and if their product was selling and people were spending, business would hire and move on.

We also have studies that clearly show taxes have no real effect on jobs. One just came out recently saying a tax cut would not create jobs. And a tax increase would not cost jobs.
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And of course we believe all those studies, most of which have been proven wrong. Please name for me one study, prediction, or projection that the Obama Administration has generated that has been accurate?

I don't believe I have ever met someone so afraid of keeping and spending more of their own money and being such a supporter of more money going to the Federal Govt. I don't get it and apparently never will, how people spending their own money can have such little affect on jobs. That isn't logical and no study can prove that to be the case. Cite your study?
 
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