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Thread: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't think it matters in terms of growth or adding new jobs. I don't believe a company says we could sell more product or service, making a larger profit, but the tax increease from 36% to 39% makes that untenable. We've going to have to forgo new jobs.

    While I believe everything is considered and weighted, and try to avoid absolutes, when I speak of it not mattering, I mean in context of the discussion, that the small increase will hinder growth and job creation to any measurable degree. I see no evidence that it will. The more important factor in growth is the profit made by more sales and more business.
    So we agree, as I stated above the small increase will not have a material effect.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    So we agree, as I stated above the small increase will not have a material effect.
    Yes, I think we do, but wanted to make sure I was clear.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Most of that has already been addressed by the fact that they are in business right now in the first place. but it is me who is looking at the overall picture and not your side. I have not made the claim that there are no other factors other than taxes. That's your side. I say there are other factors, and offer up supply and demand as being more important than taxes by an overwhelming margin. Supply and demand determine more than taxes ever could. When people spend, someone finds a way to sell. And taxes mean little to next to nothing to that.
    You are completely, and absolutely wrong about that. Even if higher taxation doesn't move the bottom line for the business, it does raise pricing to the consumer, because if taxes raise costs to the manufacturer, they in all likelyhood pass that increase along. Now, explain to me how raising prices doesn't slow purchasing (demand) for a product?

    All evidence shows that a tax cut will not increase jobs and a tax hike will not hinder jobs. Taxes play no noticable role in business by all the avaible historical information. And that is the point. Business will adjust to a tax rate. They have to downsize or change if no one is spending.
    Yeah, about as much as Obama's health care package would bend the cost curve down eh? Nice try. But you are as wrong as you can be.


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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    All evidence shows that a tax cut will not increase jobs and a tax hike will not hinder jobs. Taxes play no noticable role in business by all the avaible historical information. And that is the point. Business will adjust to a tax rate. They have to downsize or change if no one is spending.
    There is a cause-effect relationship with taxes. Taxes get piled on through the supply chain. Each hand in it gets whacked and prices increase.

    I had this precise conversation with a Euro socialist I was advising. He stated a few more percent taxation is unnoticeable. I said fine, you don't mind if my fees are bumped a few percent do you? You think I got the additional percentage points, as he wouldn't barely notice in the big scheme? ROTFLOL... fat chance. When it comes to your money... people do notice.

    You are correct about one thing; Businesses do adjust, and investors too. Businesses don't hire, investors sit on money... and businesses in a hostile environment will pick up and move... overseas. That fewer are spending is for a reason. The wealthy have tightened their wallets and take on less risk. Punitive taxation and a hostile environment set the stage.

    It really isn't too complicated... don't piss off, confuse, over regulate, or berate, the wealth creators. Hostility and confusion has its costs... as we are all seeing.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Ever notice that the several tax hike proponents never answer my question of whether they are willing to pay about 40% marginal rates? They always howl that the "rich" can afford a 4% increase in the tax rate (which raises taxes at least 10% for all income over 200K) but they never answer that easy question



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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We've been spending irresponsibly for a long, long time, regardless of party in charge. I can't think nof anything more irresponsiable than raising spending and cutting taxes as was done under the last administation. Telling people we can fight two wars and not have to pay for it was incredibly irresponsible.

    That said, I have not argued anyone's irresponsible spending is OK. So, you seem to be arguing some stereotype and not addressing me specificly.

    Let me state my position one more time. I favor cutting spending and raising taxes. And in with all respect for Charles Krauthammer, his partisan and ideaological opinion aside, he simply doesn't get a lot of this right. And he wasn't right then, ignoring Reagan's deficit spending of the time as he does.
    Given the spending in the past, imagine what our deficits would have been without tax cuts. You can only squeeze so much money out of the public before taking a nose dive.
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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Given the spending in the past, imagine what our deficits would have been without tax cuts. You can only squeeze so much money out of the public before taking a nose dive.
    Without tax cuts? Less. If we were responsble wnough to make sure we could pay for what we spend, which we do with taxes, the deficit would be less.


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    There is a cause-effect relationship with taxes. Taxes get piled on through the supply chain. Each hand in it gets whacked and prices increase.

    I had this precise conversation with a Euro socialist I was advising. He stated a few more percent taxation is unnoticeable. I said fine, you don't mind if my fees are bumped a few percent do you? You think I got the additional percentage points, as he wouldn't barely notice in the big scheme? ROTFLOL... fat chance. When it comes to your money... people do notice.

    You are correct about one thing; Businesses do adjust, and investors too. Businesses don't hire, investors sit on money... and businesses in a hostile environment will pick up and move... overseas. That fewer are spending is for a reason. The wealthy have tightened their wallets and take on less risk. Punitive taxation and a hostile environment set the stage.

    It really isn't too complicated... don't piss off, confuse, over regulate, or berate, the wealth creators. Hostility and confusion has its costs... as we are all seeing.

    .
    I have found no evidence to support that business doesn't hire due to tax cuts. I can find no objective evidence, and no one has offered any, that shows taxes make any noticable difference in hiring or economic growth. As I pointed oout long ago, history shows a florishing economy with a high tax base and with a low tax base and a struggling economy with a high tax base and with a low tax base. This suggests that taxes really don't play that large a role. Other factors, like consumer spending, are far more important.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Bush Tax Cuts: According to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, making all of the Bush tax cuts permanent, would cost the federal government $680 billion in revenue over the next 10 years. Averaging $3 million each to the richest 120,000 people in the country.

    Question #1: If trickle down theory is so successful, than why is it that under Reagan, George H.W.Bush & G.W.Bush presidencies combined, which lasted a total of 20 years created 21.5 million jobs, and under the 8 years of President Clinton's Presidency, when there were no Bush Tax cuts, ( taxes increased under Clinton) there were 23.1 million jobs created?

    Question #2: If Reublicans are truly fiscal conservatives, than why do they want to extend tax cuts that will add to the deficit? Why do they want to extend tax cuts that have been proven not to be as successful as the ones that Clinton had?

    2,900,000, the number of jobs that were created per year under Bill Clinton.

    Question #3: I'd also like to ask all the deficit hawks who want to cut government spending, what government programs they would like to cut. Not meaningless government programs that are 1/100 of 1% of the federal budget.

    Question #4: If we are going to continue to bash the Obama-Reid-Pelosi government, then let just add this picture. I understand not all of have jobs yet, but it is no doubt in my mind that the democrats have most certainly pulled us back from the brink. Obama has done more in his presidency, then Bush did in all 8 of his. What did Bush do that isn't trying to be reversed because him and the republicans messed up so bad?

    The picture is below.

    "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." --James Madison, Father of the Constitution

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    btw, I just thought I should mention, those increases you see are all PRIVATE SECTOR jobs... not overall job growth. The lame-stream media ( thank you Sarah) hasen't bothered to mention the Prez and company has had 8 consecutive months of private sector job growth.


    Remember conservatives: The main economic engine of this country IS THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
    "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." --James Madison, Father of the Constitution

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