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Thread: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Thanks for proving my point... I knew you would come through.....
    Funny, I thought you proved mine. Unwilling to provide objective evidence, right?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    When would be the right time to raise taxes? There is no evidence that not raising them will help jobs. In fact, someone has a link to a study showing that it wouldn't. But not taxing will add to the debt. So, logically, based on this, what should we do? How much do we really care about the deficit?
    Let's cut the budget first.
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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Let's cut the budget first.
    I see no reason not to ask for both at once. But I don't care which is first.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I see no reason not to ask for both at once. But I don't care which is first.
    This is from a post I did early this morning on a slightly different Topic, but it will fit here nicely.

    Depiction of the economy after all the deficit spending.



    It is a mistake to think that a Tax cut will cost the Government Revenues. Because it's all about perception and in politics and the engine that drives economics everything is dependent on a positive perception.

    The mere threat of a tax increase is enough to slow, stall, or reverse a trend in the stock markets.

    The same threat will put doubt in the minds of executives who make the decisions to to expand a work force or to increase production or even expand the size of a business or manufacturing company.

    FDR made a lot more mistakes than most people care to notice or remember, but one thing he was right about was his famous statement that "the only thing we have to fear is fear its self."

    During past times of economic uncertainty and recession major tax cuts along with major reductions in spending caused the Tax revenues to increase along with the job market, the stock markets and in a short time consumer confidence was also restored and that brought about the need to manufacture more consumer goods because everyone's attitude had be adjusted in a positive direction.

    The more product produced, grown, or manufactured the greater the economy expands and good news feeds off itself in a very positive direction, where bad news has just the opposite affects.

    Some might think that if one mans taxes are cut someone else will have to make up the difference, but once the positive affects of a cut begin to take hold in peoples minds the expanding economy makes up the short term loss of revenues.

    It's economics 101 and it's also basic human psychology 101. What goes around comes around is true in this case.

    The sad fact is that is true about defect spending also it puts that doubt into play and everything then begins to suffer and the deeper that hole is dug the worse the economy gets because that vicious cycle will propagate itself.

    So tax cuts are not only free they can if used in conjunction with balanced reduction in spending not deficit spending but over all spending to bring about more prosperity.

    The key comes back to that old adage: If you want to work you way out of a hole the first thing you must do is stop digging.

    Those who stand for nothing fall for anything, or in this case fall into a deep dark hole of economic ruin.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    I don't buy all that councilman. Instead of the rhetoric, I'm perfectly willing to look at objective evidence. Like I've pointed out before, we have tax cuts right now, have for sometime, and yet jobs have disappeared. When I look for evidence, I find that there is no objective evidence supporting the claim that taxes cost jobs or properity. Historically, we've had properity with a high tax rate, and lost jobs and seen the economy tank with a low tax base. And everything in between.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I see no reason not to ask for both at once. But I don't care which is first.
    because every time we do that they screw us and go back on the "cutting the budget" part.
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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    because every time we do that they screw us and go back on the "cutting the budget" part.
    starving the beast appears to be the only way. Giving dems more of our tax dollars means they will use it to buy more votes for themseleves



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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That rate was there before the recession, long before, and during the good years with Clinton. So, supporting it is not that difficult. You also seem to misunderstand causal relationships.

    Can you show that the previous tax rate cause the recession Bush saw? And can you explain how the recession got worse with the Bush tax cuts in place, if tax rates are the major factor in these things?
    I was referring to this, not suggesting that it was true that Bush was talking down the economy...besides, if it were possible to talk down the economy, democrats would have accomplished it some time between 2002 and 2006.
    Talking Down the Economy

    As for the cause of the 2000/2001 economic downturn, I would not say that the Clinton-era tax rates caused it. You seem to say that his tax increases in '93 caused the "good years", but I don't believe you can show that either. My suspicion is that the dot com bubble, major corporate scandals (Enron, Worldcom, etc), and the destruction of the World Trade Center got us to where we were economically at the end of 2001. I can show you with numbers (based on GDP growth rates) that the economy turned around rapidly shortly after the Bush tax cuts were passed and the trend continued until 2004.

    It's not hard to explain why the economy took a dump in 2007, and it's got little to do with taxes. Maybe you should do a little reading on GSE's and see if you can figure out why we had a massive real estate bubble, then see if you can figure out what we've done to prevent the next one.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's nonsense, as it relates to the question before us. I don't dispute the purpose of business. I dispute your three bullets have anything to do with what we're discussing. I dispute tax cuts crate jobs because there is no evidence they do. Business creates jobs when more people spend, suply and deamnd. Tax cuts have nothing to do with it.

    I'm always bothered when a argument that is so illogcal as you present is thrown up. It show a complete lack of thought or logic. That's distrubing.
    Boo, this is logic biting you on the ass. Can you feel it? Is it distrubing you?

    The purpose of business is to make profit (you do not dispute this). Tax cuts mean more profit (I don't think you can dispute this). More profit leads to more jobs (not sure whether you dispute this, but I think history would preempt that effort). You say this is irrelevant to the discussion when it is the whole point of the discussion.

    Now I'm distrubed.

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    Re: More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't buy all that councilman. Instead of the rhetoric, I'm perfectly willing to look at objective evidence. Like I've pointed out before, we have tax cuts right now, have for sometime, and yet jobs have disappeared. When I look for evidence, I find that there is no objective evidence supporting the claim that taxes cost jobs or properity. Historically, we've had properity with a high tax rate, and lost jobs and seen the economy tank with a low tax base. And everything in between.
    To think you can look at the current minor tax cuts and say they didn't help is right because half the job was left undone.

    You don't have to go back into history to see that what I say is right just look at what the threats Obama has made to raise taxes and spend what we don't have on programs that don't work to create jobs that never came and the unemplotment rate is still at 9.6 Nationally and about 12.4 in California the biggest single economy and contributor to the Nations economy.

    What is it you said? oh yes: "I'm perfectly willing to look at objective evidence." You say that but ignore the evidence that clearly shows Obama's " current level of spending is irresponsible and outrageous. We are spending trillions that we don't have. This could lead to hyperinflation, depression or worse. No country has ever spent themselves into prosperity."

    That is my opinion but it is the words of Dr. Charles Krauthammer, MD who helped develop the "Reagan Doctrine" in the 80's that cut taxes dramatically hld spening down and turn the Nation back from the edge of desperation and the deep dark abyss Carter was pushing us into.

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