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More Democrats break with Obama on tax cuts

J, be honest. Did we get any of our money back in the past?

Yes.

Congress passed the bill 21 December 1979, but with strings attached. Congress required Chrysler to obtain private financing for $1.5 billion -- the government was co-signing the note, not printing the money -- and to obtain another $2 billion in "commitments or concessions [that] can be arranged by Chrysler for the financing of its operations." One of those options, of course, was reduce employees wages; in prior discussions, the union had failed to budge, but the contingent guarantee moved the union.

What Was The Chrysler Bailout? - Political History: The Chrysler Bail Out

All the stock purchase did was give a mechanism to get our money back, not a bad thing.

Obama didn't have to do it that way.

Any of claim is dishonest.

No, it isn't.

The US is not running GM.

No, the union is, with stock ownership given for political payback. Any other claim is dishonest.


j-mac
 
Yes.


Obama didn't have to do it that way.

Of course there were other ways, but forfitting on a note wouldn't be a first. Stocks might well have been a better way.
No, it isn't.



No, the union is, with stock ownership given for political payback. Any other claim is dishonest.


j-mac

Yes, I know your spin, but it is meaningless without support. Don't expect everyone to accept univerisally the same poison you willingly swallow.
 
Of course there were other ways, but forfitting on a note wouldn't be a first. Stocks might well have been a better way.
No, it isn't.

this is disjointed, and incoherent, could you clean it up so that I can understand what you are saying here?

Yes, I know your spin, but it is meaningless without support. Don't expect everyone to accept univerisally the same poison you willingly swallow.

It's not spin Joe, it is what happened. You know facts? Though they can be pesky for liberals it is what went on....

Everything you need to know about the nightmare of government-controlled busi nesses can be found in a damning new inspector-general's report on how and why the Obama administration forced Chrysler and General Motors to oversee mass closures of car dealerships across the country.

Under the guise of "saving" the US auto industry through a taxpayer-funded bailout now topping $80 billion, President Obama's bureaucrats pushed the car companies to eliminate thousands of jobs -- with unjustified haste using dubious economic models.

The bungling of the auto bailout - NYPOST.com

Private Chrysler Stock Given to Unions in Auto Bailout
When the government bailed out Chrysler motors, stock owned by private citizens was given to unions, breaking the Constitution’s Contract Clause. Writes the WS Journal,

The Obama administration’s behavior in the Chrysler bankruptcy is a profound challenge to the rule of law. Secured creditors—entitled to first priority payment under the “absolute priority rule”—have been browbeaten by an American president into accepting only 30 cents on the dollar of their claims. Meanwhile, the United Auto Workers union, holding junior creditor claims, will get about 50 cents on the dollar.

Obama & State Takeover By Union: Syndicalism


Don't expect the facts to change just because they are inconvenient for you Joe.


j-mac
 
this is disjointed, and incoherent, could you clean it up so that I can understand what you are saying here?

I'm sorry you struggled with this j, it isn't really difficult. Are you trying to implant your spin on it?

In any case, no one claims there was only one way to do it. That's your strawman and nothing more. We've given before, and loaned before. The results have always been we got nothing for it. So, stay with the actual argument. No one argued there was no other way. Just that this was a valid way.


It's not spin Joe, it is what happened. You know facts? Though they can be pesky for liberals it is what went on....
Don't expect the facts to change just because they are inconvenient for you Joe.


j-mac
[/QUOTE]

I'm always impressed j in how often you and those on your side given me someone elses spin to support the spin you use. Someone sharing your opinion, skewed as it is, is not evidence of it actually ahppening. You merely support my view that you shouldn't expect everyone to accept univerisally the same poison you willingly swallow.
 
Facts are only facts, when presented by your side. If the opposition supplies them, they are 'spin'.

An opinion is not a fact. That you don't seem to kknow that may be a concern.
 
Says the man who apparently knows everything.

I know the difference between fact and opinion. That's not that special. Everyone really should know that much.
 
another dem poster would beg to disagree with you

So? Why do you think this changes anything? here is still a real difference between fact and opinion no matter who you quote.
 
I'm sorry you struggled with this j, it isn't really difficult. Are you trying to implant your spin on it?

No, I am coming at you from a point in which I was actually alive, and living in Michigan at the time of the 1979 Carter bailout of Chrysler, and he didn't take over the auto company to do it. The only reason I can see for Obama to do this the way in which he has is to give ownership of the company to the unions and ensure a hand in dictating what they build in terms of so called 'Green cars'.

In any case, no one claims there was only one way to do it. That's your strawman and nothing more. We've given before, and loaned before. The results have always been we got nothing for it. So, stay with the actual argument. No one argued there was no other way. Just that this was a valid way.

Explain what you mean by "valid"? Because if there were a less intrusive way to go about it, I am sure that the American people would have preferred that to a take over.

I'm always impressed j in how often you and those on your side given me someone elses spin to support the spin you use. Someone sharing your opinion, skewed as it is, is not evidence of it actually ahppening. You merely support my view that you shouldn't expect everyone to accept univerisally the same poison you willingly swallow.

You don't have to Joe, that is what is great about this country for the time being. You can continue to believe your own misguided spin being fed you by Axlerod, and we can continue to smack you down with the facts.


j-mac
 
worst august in 27 years

a september gain only compared to an anemic 9-09

54% of americans are disposed against association with gm, resentful of govt bailout

for taxpayers to break even gm must reach 70B market value

initial shares are projected at 134

"the price needed for a full recovery of the us investment is far higher than gm shares have ever reached"

"analysts and govt officials have expressed doubt that the us will ever recover its investment"

the best assurance obama can give is his "holding out the prospect" of the taxpayer being made whole

the best any of the pundits (LOL!) can muster is "cautious optimism"

even at 134 the intial price is below the actual cost to taxpayers

hopefully, the discounted entrance which is higher than gm has ever sold for, even in its best days, will "help allay investor concern in the face of the slow recovery of the us economy and flat auto sales"

gm's credit rating is 3 levels below investor grade

gm faces a 26B pension shortfall

gm's own draft prospectus says that weak economic and market conditions "continue to impact sales"

gm veep don johnson says he expects "a slow recovery in auto sales," that "sales will pick up only modestly thru the rest of the year"

despite $3700 discounts per vehicle, gm had its worst august since 1983

after the worst august in your adult lifetime, ford increased sales 46% in september, chrysler 61, gm 11

BUY!
 
by the way, the ENTHUSIASM GAP is in-your-face REAL

probably the highest funciton performed by this forum, which in its heyday was the most elevated, intellectual, free and refreshing political chatroom i, a veteran of many, had ever experienced, is to allow members, by entering into debate or simply by observing, to gauge a real measure of what's going on NOW in american politics, the gist of the arguments, the lay of the land

of course, all forums, after considering their sources, provide this opportunity, and this one still does as well

and what i'm seeing is---where have all the lib heavyweights gone?

it appears that those remaining in the obamite camp around here are mostly the taunting punks and mindlessly pale posers, ghost thin and lacking substance

my side of the aisle is still manned by guns, young and old, and the controversies---this gm ipo being but an example---appear to be going mostly one sided

the most serious former obamites these days are confined mainly to the pages devoted to personalities

it is what it is

i can fully understand---there's NOTHING a serious obamite can say, can do or propose

from health care to the stimulus to the pusillanimous punt on the bush tax cuts...

the economy, the jobs reports, the growing despair which looks angrily to washington no more for answers but for change...

the polls, the 1000 or so campaigns currently raging which will determine control of our legislatures...

afghanistan, the middle east peace talks, global warming, don't ask don't tell...

the white house management team, the president's comprehensive lack of vision, inspiration, leadership, mere competence...

you can see it in the president's stumps---he tells his own supporters to quit whining, he attacks the opposition for its gargantuan money advantage

he knows it's not working, but he has NO other cards, NONE

he's completely checkmated, and he did it to himself

the absence of heft demonstrated on these pages on behalf of the obamite camp speaks volumes

it reveals a leadership which has shot its wad on every conceivable issue, is stuck with what it's done, has no way out, and dreads the consequences it sees coming its way

carry on
 
No, I am coming at you from a point in which I was actually alive, and living in Michigan at the time of the 1979 Carter bailout of Chrysler, and he didn't take over the auto company to do it. The only reason I can see for Obama to do this the way in which he has is to give ownership of the company to the unions and ensure a hand in dictating what they build in terms of so called 'Green cars'.

J, because you can only see one reason, because you have a blind spot, isn't eqaul to it being the only reason. your own bias hinders you, as it does with most of us. It takes real effort to look beyond our biases. But, as a helpful hint, anything that starts out like this: I Unions & Marxist Politics.

Well, it gives you a good indictation of clear bias and opinion making rather than anything factual.


Explain what you mean by "valid"? Because if there were a less intrusive way to go about it, I am sure that the American people would have preferred that to a take over.

Oh, I doubt anything would make some (yourself for example) happy. In reality, there has been that much intrusion. All ther eis in reality is a mechinaism for repayment, and maybe even some hope GM will improve itself.


You don't have to Joe, that is what is great about this country for the time being. You can continue to believe your own misguided spin being fed you by Axlerod, and we can continue to smack you down with the facts.


j-mac

You miss the point yet again. you offered no evidence, but someone sporting the line. I don't offer Axlerod's opinion as support. If I did, I would be doing what you're doing, or more accurately, if I used Moveon or Obeman's opinion as my support, I'd be doing what you're doing. Opinion is not evidence. It is opinion, only as strong as the support it has to offer.
 
j-mac said:
Great article here Joe, I suggest you read it, in it's entirety....You may learn something.

Obama & State Takeover By Union: Syndicalism

j-mac
I keep telling you j, garbage in equals garbage out.

Is there really doubt in your mind that President Obama favors unions, and that they've influenced his policies and decisions? Really?
 
Is there really doubt in your mind that President Obama favors unions, and that they've influenced his policies and decisions? Really?

Favor? Don't know. But that is a far cry from J's unsupported claim. I favor blonds, but don't discriminate against any other hair color. To support J's claim he has to actually provide evidence.
 
Favor? Don't know. But that is a far cry from J's unsupported claim. I favor blonds, but don't discriminate against any other hair color. To support J's claim he has to actually provide evidence.


Not even ginger kids?:mrgreen:
 
I favor blonds, but don't discriminate against any other hair color. To support J's claim he has to actually provide evidence.

exempting unions from the cadillac tax obamacare imposes on every other american IS discrimination, hello

that evidence would be required, here, is revealing because the seiu exemption is as common knowledge as the cornhusker kickback, for instance

anyway, the link is about 5 posts up

think

link
 
exempting unions from the cadillac tax obamacare imposes on every other american IS discrimination, hello

that evidence would be required, here, is revealing because the seiu exemption is as common knowledge as the cornhusker kickback, for instance

anyway, the link is about 5 posts up

think

link

Beware claims of common knowledge when it involves a judgement. You wrongly assume that the judgement of the action is unchallenged, meaning only your spin is acceptable. Like I said earlier, garbage in equals garbage out.
 
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