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Thread: Dems thrilled as tea party win stuns Delaware GOP

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    Re: Dems thrilled as tea party win stuns Delaware GOP

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I keep hearing you guys talk about what the Delaware voters want, but lets not forget this was not a general election, and in that arena O'Donnell is way too extreme for the moderate majority. Last night you saw GOP primary voters split in two, those who thought that the incumbent had it in the bag and did not turn out, and those motivated tea-party members who pulled-off a victory.
    Which is why some of us said several threads ago that the republicans likely will not win a majority of either the hosue OR the senate.

    So maybe the republicans lose and they have to reassess...do we keep promoting the same partisan ideologies that have contributed to the 14 trillion dollar debt or do we start actually being fiscally conservative? This may be a good lesson for them for 2012.

    I highly doubt the republicans would have seized control under any circumstances...we have seen far too many shenanigans of late...but even if they had...what do you think they would have done different? Ever watch Blazing Saddles? They all harumph with the best of them...but what have they actually DONE?

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    Re: Dems thrilled as tea party win stuns Delaware GOP

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And yet while you're saying "Compromise is required" you're ignoring the fact that the GOP in the state are refusing to "compromise" by acknowleding that their voters didn't want their candidate and actually giving that candidate support.

    Frankly, McDonald IS listening to the voters. The republican voters in that state are saying "We'd rather someone with staunch conservative values and who will run on those and push those, even if he may not win, then someone that has a better chance at winning but is going to do little good at actually furthering our desires and hopes for the country". Frankly, I see nothing wrong with that.

    Haven't people been bitching and complaining for years that elections are voting for the "lesser of two evils"? And now that people are actually saying "Fine, we want someone based on principle NOT based on who has the best shot to win" suddenly we're condemning them for that and complaining about not choosing whose the most politically advantageous candidate?
    I understand your point, but I'm speaking from a purely pragmatic perspective. If you wanted to advance your principles further and into the national arena you have to consider electability, now Castle may not have done everything you wanted but he would so some things you'd find positive as a public official. O'Donnell won't get a elected and therefore won't do anything.

    But certainly yes there is something to be said for sticking to one's beliefs if they are held that dear, perhaps I've lost my perspective to how that can be an admirable quality in many ways. And there's something positive to be said for voting for a candidate you respect most even if they won't be elected. And there's something to be said for the fact that voting for 3rd parties or candidates who dont follow their party lines will change the system if they are elected. I've probably been clumping together tea partiers too much and losing some of my focus in my own stereotypes and smugness.

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    Re: Dems thrilled as tea party win stuns Delaware GOP

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I understand your point, but I'm speaking from a purely pragmatic perspective. If you wanted to advance your principles further and into the national arena you have to consider electability, now Castle may not have done everything you wanted but he would so some things you'd find positive as a public official. O'Donnell won't get a elected and therefore won't do anything.
    I definitely get the pragmatic approach. I think my issue is, the Republicans have tried that over and over again since the late 90's. They tried that with the last Presidential candidate even. What's happened? They either lose, or they get people in there that get few things conservatives really like done while doing a lot of things that we don't like and essentially telling us "Deal with it". They've also not exactly been WINNING elections on this notion either, in part because its depressed the turnout and the enthusiasm as our elected officials get up to Washington and are seemingly only marginally better than the other side.

    While not pragmatic in the short term, I think it could be very pragmatic in the longer term. There's a chance that by presenting an actual viable alternative and actually attempting to preach and stick to conservative ideology that over time some of these places that are unlikely to be wins could shift to places where there's at least an outside shot...which, frankly, is all they have under the "pragmatic" route now really. And if that happens then suddenly, while taking some losses over time, you have the shot at some point to get someone that ACTUALLy will represent you.

    I guess the difference is...

    If your daily expenses are $20 a week and you're in debt $1000, it'd be pragmatic in the short term to take a job that's offered to you that'll pay $100 over the next 5 weeks. Its not exactly a GOOD situation, but it at least gives you your daily expenses and pays off a bit of your debt. However, its so small and negligible that you're still going to generally be feeling the affects of that debt for a good long time.

    Now, same situation, but you get told that if you keep yourself unemployed and open for the next 4 weeks there's a decent chance you may get a job paying $1000 a week. This is a gamble, as you're going to have to really skimp and deal with a bad situation as for 4 weeks you can't pay your daily expenses and in the end you may not even get what you are hoping for. However, if it works, that hardship will lead to an oppertunity where not only will you pay off your debt quickly but you'll have money on top of it.

    To me, both can be intelligent based on ones situation and how much they want to gamble.

    To me, the pragmatic approach you speak of for voting in a place lik delaware is example one. You MAY possibly get elected at times, and when you're elected they may vote in your favor for a handful of "key issue" votes, but for the most part they're not really doing much to really help get you where you're wanting to go...mainly its just keeping you afloat. I see this as more like the second example, the calculated gamble in hopes of better long term affects. Sure, it may result in some losses and routes, but the chance at the end is that you may actually have a shot to do what you need in total plus some.

    To me, the pragmatic approach has been failing over and over and over again for conservatives. Its time to gamble.

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    Re: Dems thrilled as tea party win stuns Delaware GOP

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I definitely get the pragmatic approach. I think my issue is, the Republicans have tried that over and over again since the late 90's. They tried that with the last Presidential candidate even. What's happened? They either lose, or they get people in there that get few things conservatives really like done while doing a lot of things that we don't like and essentially telling us "Deal with it". They've also not exactly been WINNING elections on this notion either, in part because its depressed the turnout and the enthusiasm as our elected officials get up to Washington and are seemingly only marginally better than the other side.

    While not pragmatic in the short term, I think it could be very pragmatic in the longer term. There's a chance that by presenting an actual viable alternative and actually attempting to preach and stick to conservative ideology that over time some of these places that are unlikely to be wins could shift to places where there's at least an outside shot...which, frankly, is all they have under the "pragmatic" route now really. And if that happens then suddenly, while taking some losses over time, you have the shot at some point to get someone that ACTUALLy will represent you.

    I guess the difference is...

    If your daily expenses are $20 a week and you're in debt $1000, it'd be pragmatic in the short term to take a job that's offered to you that'll pay $100 over the next 5 weeks. Its not exactly a GOOD situation, but it at least gives you your daily expenses and pays off a bit of your debt. However, its so small and negligible that you're still going to generally be feeling the affects of that debt for a good long time.

    Now, same situation, but you get told that if you keep yourself unemployed and open for the next 4 weeks there's a decent chance you may get a job paying $1000 a week. This is a gamble, as you're going to have to really skimp and deal with a bad situation as for 4 weeks you can't pay your daily expenses and in the end you may not even get what you are hoping for. However, if it works, that hardship will lead to an oppertunity where not only will you pay off your debt quickly but you'll have money on top of it.

    To me, both can be intelligent based on ones situation and how much they want to gamble.

    To me, the pragmatic approach you speak of for voting in a place lik delaware is example one. You MAY possibly get elected at times, and when you're elected they may vote in your favor for a handful of "key issue" votes, but for the most part they're not really doing much to really help get you where you're wanting to go...mainly its just keeping you afloat. I see this as more like the second example, the calculated gamble in hopes of better long term affects. Sure, it may result in some losses and routes, but the chance at the end is that you may actually have a shot to do what you need in total plus some.

    To me, the pragmatic approach has been failing over and over and over again for conservatives. Its time to gamble.
    Here is the problem - Without a little pragmatism, the Republicans are going to fizzle. With it, the sky is the limit.
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    Re: Dems thrilled as tea party win stuns Delaware GOP

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Here is the problem - Without a little pragmatism, the Republicans are going to fizzle. With it, the sky is the limit.
    Dan, the Base, is tired of your version of "pragmatism" and have spoken. We, as a whole, are tired of being forced to vote for candidates that are "pragmatic" and when they win they turn on the base, they "walk across the aisle" or vote with the Dem's on big issues.

    What good is pragmatism when it doesn't make a difference, doesn't work for your goals?
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    Re: Dems thrilled as tea party win stuns Delaware GOP

    But so what if the sky is the limit if those candidates don't support what you support? It doesn't make a difference at that point.

    Besides, what polls would make you think that because these conservatives are winning primaries that they won't win the election? I would think that fiscal conservatism would appeal to almost all Americans (though cutting spending might not be, but it doesn't seem as though other candidates care about the budget).

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    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Dems thrilled as tea party win stuns Delaware GOP

    The two party system needs to die off. Though to be honest, I wonder if the country is smart enough to let it die off. Alot of people use it as a crutch when voting, voting for a candidate just they are a republican, or a democrat.
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    Re: Dems thrilled as tea party win stuns Delaware GOP

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Here is the problem - Without a little pragmatism, the Republicans are going to fizzle. With it, the sky is the limit.
    Two things...

    1. There is a large difference between a little pramgatism and letting pragmatism be your focus which has been the case with the majority of the NE states over the past few years. A little pragmatic is realizing not to push certain conservative issues hard or as a focus in a state like that. Pragmatism being your focus is when you push for someone whose like the democrat, only not AS big on gun control/spending/tax increases/social services/etc than them. IE "I'm a republican, cause I don't want to go as far as the democrat does".

    I have no issue with pragmatism. I think you can have a little pragmatism and still be stuanchly conservative however.

    2. To me, fizzling in this years election isn't a huge deal if its leading to a more wide spread shift in how the Republican party operates and the candidates it looks at in the long run

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    Re: Dems thrilled as tea party win stuns Delaware GOP

    I am very encouraged by the number of people who are looking forward to the Tea Party Candidates victories. What it means to me is we do have hope for RESTORING AMERICA before Obama finish his reign of terror against the Constitution, and the complete destruction of our economy.

    We just have to stay on course and not allow the 5th column Lame Stream Media interfere with their lies and Obama worship and propaganda.

    The Democrat Party has been riding rough shod of the Congress and Senate long enough and the Republicans have been too timid to really fight back with a few rare exceptions.

    Now is the right time in History for this Tea Party movement to forge ahead and make some History of it's own, and they can or should I say "WE THE PEOPLE" CAN!

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    Re: Dems thrilled as tea party win stuns Delaware GOP

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Dan, the Base, is tired of your version of "pragmatism" and have spoken. We, as a whole, are tired of being forced to vote for candidates that are "pragmatic" and when they win they turn on the base, they "walk across the aisle" or vote with the Dem's on big issues.

    What good is pragmatism when it doesn't make a difference, doesn't work for your goals?
    Yeah....lets see how many elections Republicans are going to win with only their base. Good luck...I hope the GOP follows your strategy.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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