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Thread: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

  1. #191
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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Unless you want to argue that every single government employee represents the government 24/7, this guy was not there representing NJTransit.

    Step away from this situation and imagine what would happen if the position you're arguing for were actually the law. Imagine if GWB had decreed that anyone employed by the federal government in any capacity would be fired if they ever objected to any administration policies in public. Under your theory, because no one has a right to work for the government, that decree would not violate anyone's first amendment rights. That's clearly not how the first amendment was designed to work.
    I have heard that people in the armed forces are under some oath to not speak about the president badly in public. I was really shocked when I learned that, but I see why that maybe necessary.

    But that GWB comparison isn't really fair. This is a guy's supervisor firing him, right? The president firing people who work for the government over speech, especially when they are NOT connected to his office is out of line. Why should the pres have authority over firing somebody working a transit in NJ.

    Remember when Obama's admin fired that woman over her speech at the NAACP? Where were these arguments then? Was that a violation of her freedom of speech? There wasn't any outcry over her freedom of speech... wtf

    How is this any different from that?
    Last edited by SheWolf; 09-16-10 at 08:30 PM.

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This isn't a statute, it's the Constitution. The Constitution binds the government, not individuals.
    OK.. I am trying to see it from you're point of view, but I can't see it yet..

    I agree the constitution binds the government, not individuals... but this isn't a government policy to fire people in NJ, NY, and all the other 50 states for this "crime." This was a guy in NJ getting sacked by his supervisor.. it's not government policy to fire all these people. How much protection do government employees have to their job? How much authority to gov supervisors have over their subordinates?

    I know some European countries have all these laws making impossible without firing somebody for a job without a "good reason." I don't know what those good reasons are, but I have heard that almost nobody gets fired... is there something like that going on that restricts government supervisors?

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    If new jersey is like louisiana, it's a right to hire and fire state. You can be fired for any reason, just so it's not based on race or religion, which this is not. You embarass your company? You get the boot, don't come crying to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    I agree he was wronged but in a court case it will either depend on how good the employee hand book spelled out the rule under which he was fired or in whether he can convince a jury he was wronged.

    I think he has a chance because the Country will for the most part think the first Amendment out weighs the Co. rules. Besides if it's like California and it doesn't require all 12 in the jury for a fining in a civil case. so he has a chance.

    We're for the most part tired of the claims of Tolerance in favor of Muslims and to hell with Christians.

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    We all have the same rights. None of us can be punished by the government for protected speech. All of us can be punished by private individuals for protected speech.
    I know this is complicated. I have seen people fired from public and private schools over speech though.

    Private schools are not government funded, so it's cool to fire somebody at a Catholic school saying a bunch of anti-Christian stuff, being pregnancy and unwed (has happened), and being a member of an atheist org outside of work

    Public schools are a little harder to fire somebody over speech.. but it happens. I remember a story about a teacher who was in some kind of porn. Not a movie but a pictorial that her students were accessing it online. They found it without her knowledge and it started going around, and her job was on the line for it. But the argument wasn't over free speech, it was over her intentions saying "I screwed up, but I learned. See Imma good role model." Something like that.. I don't know what the outcome was.

    And is over something that occurred in the past.. not even the present

    Thoughts?

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Unless you want to argue that every single government employee represents the government 24/7, this guy was not there representing NJTransit.

    Step away from this situation and imagine what would happen if the position you're arguing for were actually the law. Imagine if GWB had decreed that anyone employed by the federal government in any capacity would be fired if they ever objected to any administration policies in public. Under your theory, because no one has a right to work for the government, that decree would not violate anyone's first amendment rights. That's clearly not how the first amendment was designed to work.
    Remember when Karl Rove fired a bunch of U.S. attorneys because they didn't tow the party line instead of the law?.....

    "The dismissal of U.S. Attorneys controversy was initiated by the midterm dismissal of seven United States Attorneys on December 7, 2006 by the George W. Bush administration's Department of Justice. Congressional investigations focused on whether the Department of Justice and the White House were using the U.S. Attorney positions for political advantage....."
    Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Well, I have been reading more about this... I am starting to think this might be an issue for the supreme court to listen to. I think their arguments might like

    Quran burner could argue that this was protected speech and make all the same arguments on this board, but the supervisor and the transit may argue that they saw his actions as threatening to the troops. The Pentagon, the president, military leaders like Gen Petraeus have stated that burning the Quran would put the troops endanger.

    Freedom of speech is restricted when it may threaten the safety of the troops and war efforts, right?

    And I did read that he violated ethics of his job...

    Just doing some reading on the issue

    but because I am sick, I have to quit for now... baiiiiiii

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    He was not thrown in jail now was he?

    Freedom of speech does not prevent you from losing friends from being a moron, or having people boycott your business or stop your employer from deciding he/she does not want you working for them anymore

    It means the government will not arrest you, fine you, or confiscate your property when you exercise your freedome of speech
    You're totally missing the point, dude. If the government can fire a civil service employee, for excercising his right to free speech, today; then the government can throw someone in jail for the same offense, tomorrow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Well, I have been reading more about this... I am starting to think this might be an issue for the supreme court to listen to. I think their arguments might like

    Quran burner could argue that this was protected speech and make all the same arguments on this board, but the supervisor and the transit may argue that they saw his actions as threatening to the troops. The Pentagon, the president, military leaders like Gen Petraeus have stated that burning the Quran would put the troops endanger.

    Freedom of speech is restricted when it may threaten the safety of the troops and war efforts, right?

    And I did read that he violated ethics of his job...

    Just doing some reading on the issue

    but because I am sick, I have to quit for now... baiiiiiii
    I'm just curious; who would be defending this dude, if he displayed the Ten Commandments, on NJ Transit property and was fired for his refusal to romove them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I'm just curious; who would be defending this dude, if he displayed the Ten Commandments, on NJ Transit property and was fired for his refusal to romove them?
    Totally not the same thing at all.
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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You're totally missing the point, dude. If the government can fire a civil service employee, for excercising his right to free speech, today; then the government can throw someone in jail for the same offense, tomorrow.
    If you look back in this thread, you will see some fine arguments outlining and proving with links why you seem to be exactly right. Government employees specifically cannot be fired for exercising their freedom of speech unless it interferes with the operations of their branch/whatever. Since he simply organized trains, the logic went, his having burned the koran wouldn't interfere. Just thought I'd pass on previous thread discussion. Mr. Vicchio, Zyphin and RightInNYCity put up some convincing evidence to that effect starting at Post #51. Just FYI. Seems gvmt employees are treated very differently re constitutional rights than in the private sector.

    My thought is that they can say he interfered by endangering US troops, whatever....it'll be interesting to see this play out.

    Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    We all have the same rights. None of us can be punished by the government for protected speech. All of us can be punished by private individuals for protected speech.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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