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Thread: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

  1. #101
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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    You don't have that right to a job. An employer has the right to choose to terminate an employment agreement at any time. I don't care if it was the government; he wasn't arrested, had his property confiscated, or faced any other civil or criminal penalties. His rights weren't violated. He acted stupidly and is facing the consequences.
    If that's your view please respond to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The public sector issue is the key reason for it.

    Do the following....

    Replace Koran with:

    The Bible
    Dianetics
    The American Flag
    The Confederate Flag
    The Mexican Flag
    A reprinting USA Patriot Act
    A reprinting of the Stimulus bill
    The Democratic party Platform
    The Republican party Platform
    An image of George Bush
    An image of Barack Obama
    An image of Jesse Jackson
    An image of Jerry Farwell
    An Obama birth certificate
    A picture of the Twin Towers while wearing a Cheney mask

    Do any of you think it should be perfectly allowable for a government agency to fire a government employee that is not referencing or using his job in any way to do those things during his off time. If so, which ones exactly would you be fine with?
    I'd love to know what other authoritarian acts of government control you support.

    Further questions:

    Do you all support a government jobs ability to have a "code of conduct" employees must agree to that states they are not allowed to own a firearm?
    Do you all support a government jobs ability to have a "Code of conduct" stating employees must attend church every sunday?
    Do you all support the governments ability to fire any employee that is found to be expressing political thought that is contrary to what the Presidents or head of the agencies view is?

    I just want to find out exactly what constiutional rights you think a "Code of conduct" should allow the government to **** on and which ones you think are worthy of defending.

  2. #102
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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So if Bush fired every single federal employee who disagreed with any administration policy, you think that would be constitutional? What if the government fired every Jewish or black employee?
    Hi, Right. You've put forth an excellent argument -- especially the part about you being a Federal employee and clearly knowing what the law is through sessions at work (I think you said). I did notice in your link that there is some wishy-washy wording they may be relying on....and that the ACLU say his rights may have been violated. At any rate, great job. You've 'just about' convinced me. I hope we see more about this online in the future. Bet we do. (I wonder if the Code of Conduct he really violated was that he was supposed to be at work that Saturday. Ha!)
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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    That would be stupid and a very bad political move, but yes, he does have that right.
    So you contention is that its perfectly acceptable for the government to punish people for political speech as long as said punishment isn't imprisonment?

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You're blaming me for the fact that you didn't bother to read the thread?
    If I missed something while typing a response to the first post I saw directed at me, then point it out, but don't be a smart ass about it -- and don't assume every link or post had value or relevance. Especially here.

    I gave my response to the OP, then responded to the first post directed at me. What is your problem?



    And again, the government cannot enforce a code of conduct that violates the constitution (even if we assume that his actions violate said code).
    The code of conduct doesn't stop anyone from posing nude or burning a koran. But if you do it in public (or playboy) in a manner that reflects negatively on the office you work for...



    Thankfully, none of this is relevant under the law.
    The testimony of the police who detained him will be extremely relevant. This wasn't a guy carrying a moronic sign -- he took it further and the context, how people reacted, the concern for public satfey, etc. is all relevant.



    Again, this is just wrong from beginning to end.
    How so? If he didn't get his picture taken, then he'd be at work. Duh.



    Defecating on the PR flag = unprotected hate speech
    Burning the US flag = protected speech

    Interesting theory.
    Context. Read the whole post and don't try to put words in my mouth with your typical feeble straw man b.s.

    Burning the U.S. flag at a hippy war protest = protected.
    Burning the Puerto Rican flag at a protest with Puerto Ricans and counter protestors present = not protected

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    If you're at an event, and because of the time, place, and people involved the situation becomes volatile and you take some action that is meant to get the ball rolling and enrage people even further... No, that is not covered.
    Ah, so you don't support the right of Westboro protesting because it causes situations to become volatile and has caused people to attack them before?

    And you wouldn't consider burning an American Flag in front of a number of soldiers who is expressing that it would enrage them because then its no longer "protected" since it would piss people off?

    I mean, since your basis for your argument of why SOME political speech should be protected and others isn't is whether or not that the speech is inflammatory to the point that it can make the situation volatile.

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So you contention is that its perfectly acceptable for the government to punish people for political speech as long as said punishment isn't imprisonment?
    OK, now if an employee's actions can cause bodily injury to other employees then their is even more cause to fire him. When Mr. Fenton decided to burn the Qur'an, he accepted the consequences that could potentially arise from that action, including putting his fellow co-workers in danger.

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    They can if they sign a contract (ie - saying they agree with NJ Transit Code of Ethics) when they first got the job.
    A code of ethics does not trump the Constitution.

    Insulting the people you work for in the community != Political Speech which is protected for government employees.

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    OK, now if an employee's actions can cause bodily injury to other employees then their is even more cause to fire him.
    How in the world is that even applicable to this situation we're talking about?

    When Mr. Fenton decided to burn the Qur'an, he accepted the consequences that could potentially arise from that action, including putting his fellow co-workers in danger.
    How in the world do you reasonably reason he put his co-workers in danger?

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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So you contention is that its perfectly acceptable for the government to punish people for political speech as long as said punishment isn't imprisonment?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    If that's your view please respond to this:



    I'd love to know what other authoritarian acts of government control you support.

    Further questions:

    Do you all support a government jobs ability to have a "code of conduct" employees must agree to that states they are not allowed to own a firearm?
    Do you all support a government jobs ability to have a "Code of conduct" stating employees must attend church every sunday?
    Do you all support the governments ability to fire any employee that is found to be expressing political thought that is contrary to what the Presidents or head of the agencies view is?

    I just want to find out exactly what constiutional rights you think a "Code of conduct" should allow the government to **** on and which ones you think are worthy of defending.
    Do you have the same opinion about private businesses doing this?

    No one forced the employee to take the job. He entered into an agreement with the government. Both parties are allowed to renege at any time. If the governments want to self-police and enact laws specifically preventing them from doing this, I don't really have an issue. Right now, I don't view them as different from any other employer. His rights were not violated. He didn't receive any civil or criminal penalties, only what many private sector employers would dole out. Free speech doesn't trump freedom of association
    Last edited by DrunkenAsparagus; 09-15-10 at 11:36 PM.
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    Re: Koran burner Derek Fenton booted from his job at NJ Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    How in the world is that even applicable to this situation we're talking about?

    How in the world do you reasonably reason he put his co-workers in danger?
    Any Islamic extremist could or want to cause him harm. What's to stop some disgrunted extremist from blowing up the place he works at? Look at the South Park episode they aired. They bleeped almost everything because the writers put the creators' lives at stake. They are not and have not infringed on his right to express himself. They fired him for violating their code of ethics.

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