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Dont ask Dont tell Policy Ruled Unconstitutional

That's not what I said. I said they haven't been in a prolonged fight, since they lifted the ban in 1993. You're more than welcome to provide some docs that prove me wrong.

73' war, Yom Kippur war, was the most devastating war in Israel's history, and it was after 67'.
Besides that, the first Lebanese war was the most prolonged war Israel has had, and soldiers have had to deal with constant insurgency.
It has went on until 2000.
 
And how in the hell could an activist judge know that? Gimme a break!!

Through testimony from those on both sides. Hello....
 
It has nothing to do with professionalism, or a lack there of. How many times do you have to be told that?

What the hell do you call it when somebody's homophobia gets in the way of how they do a job as important as defense of country and freedom? You guys keep talking about how proud you are of what you do, and then you go off on how the fags are going to disrupt all that by not hiding the fact that they're fags.

If that isn't a professionalism issue, what the bloody hell is it?
 
Sin? You mean the prejudice? Senior NCOs define the culture and if they say it is not acceptable to give gays a harsh time, that's the way it will be.

NCO's say that it's unacceptable to sexually harass female soldiers, but it happens. NCO's say that it's unacceptable to assault another soldier, but it happens. NCO's say that it's unacceptable to rape another soldier, but it happens. Are you going to blame every ill, within the military on the NCO corps?
 
73' war, Yom Kippur war, was the most devastating war in Israel's history, and it was after 67'.
Besides that, the first Lebanese war was the most prolonged war Israel has had, and soldiers have had to deal with constant insurgency.
It has went on until 2000.

You could argue that Israel has been in prolonged low level conflict for quite a few years actually.
 
73' war, Yom Kippur war, was the most devastating war in Israel's history, and it was after 67'.
Besides that, the first Lebanese war was the most prolonged war Israel has had, and soldiers have had to deal with constant insurgency.
It has went on until 2000.

I never said otherwise. Please, read what I wrote, not what someone says I wrote.
 
73' war, Yom Kippur war, was the most devastating war in Israel's history, and it was after 67'.
Besides that, the first Lebanese war was the most prolonged war Israel has had, and soldiers have had to deal with constant insurgency.
It has went on until 2000.

Okay. How about since Israel changed its policy on gays in the IDF in the early 90s? Has the IDF seen what you would classify as prolonged combat (or "real" combat) since then?

I'm asking because I have no idea, and apdst isn't going to listen to whatever I research and present, so I'd rather get your take.
 
What the hell do you call it when somebody's homophobia gets in the way of how they do a job as important as defense of country and freedom? You guys keep talking about how proud you are of what you do, and then you go off on how the fags are going to disrupt all that by not hiding the fact that they're fags.

If that isn't a professionalism issue, what the bloody hell is it?

Don't blame the military. Blame society.
 
NCO's say that it's unacceptable to sexually harass female soldiers, but it happens. NCO's say that it's unacceptable to assault another soldier, but it happens. NCO's say that it's unacceptable to rape another soldier, but it happens. Are you going to blame every ill, within the military on the NCO corps?

Not at all. **** happens. But if the NCO corps resist gays openly serving and actually endorse harassment, then it will never fly. They are the gate keeper.
 
Not at all. **** happens. But if the NCO corps resist gays openly serving and actually endorse harassment, then it will never fly. They are the gate keeper.

What makes you think that the NCO corps is endorsing the harassment of gays?
 
Stop deflecting -- if it isn't a professionalism issue that would have openly serving gays disrupting unit choesion, what is it?

You've been told what it is. If you're narrow mind won't allow you to get it, then there's nothing more I can do for you.
 
Not at all. **** happens. But if the NCO corps resist gays openly serving and actually endorse harassment, then it will never fly. They are the gate keeper.

This is part of what the year long DOD report being worked on is going to address from what I have heard. How to train NCO's and officers on handling issues that arise. Based on the Rand study done a couple years ago, open resistance seems unlikely however.
 
Why is it that you can train an individual to become a professional dispenser of death and destruction in a handful of months, but figuring out the best way to deal with gay people takes years?

It hasn't taken months, its taken centuries.

Yes, the act of training that specific individual took months, but DEVELOPING the methods of training combat soldiers is something that societies have been doing for centuries.... its an artform we've come to understand, and now we just adapt ever so slightly every few decades as war strategies change...

Dealing with possible inter-unit romatic relationships in a combat unit (note I said combat) is not something that our military has much experience with, administratively.
 
TacticalEvilDan;1058979184 said:
I don't hate the military. I'm disappointed in them.

Unfortunately, you are proving otherwise. You see, when a person accuses the military of being unproffessional and that "it makes sense," he does maintain a streak of hatred towards it. Like it or not, upholding the Commander-in-Chiefs DADT policy is a matter of professionalism.

TacticalEvilDan;1058979184 said:
That said, I will ask the question one more time: is the reason that unit cohesion would be impacted by gays serving openly the fact that our military isn't professional enough to set aside personal prejudice in the name of serving their country?

You have been given your answers over and over despite asking the same boringly laced questions. Like them or not there they are. The military is professional enough to follow the policy set by civilians. DADT is of White House origin. Eventually, gays will serve openly. The prejudice of an American society is reflected within our military. You can beat on the military over andover fromthe safetly of your keyboard, but in the end, the frustration you see in the mirror comes from our society...not the military aspect of it.
 
Frankly unit cohesion could only be undermined by people who hate gays. Ive seen a flaming homo during basic in the bay a floor beneath us and nobody seemed to mind him much.

This is an exaggeration. It is entirely possible to be against gays serving openly without hating gays. Over the top rhetoric is not of value from either side in the discussion.
 
Okay. How about since Israel changed its policy on gays in the IDF in the early 90s? Has the IDF seen what you would classify as prolonged combat (or "real" combat) since then?

As I said, the first Lebanon war was stretching after 93, and until 2000.
It could also be pointed out that besides the second Intifada, the second Lebanon war and operation Cast Lead in Gaza, the IDF is always involved in warfare operations.

Edit: Funny how my comments in this thread always appear in the top of a new page.
 
You've been told what it is. If you're narrow mind won't allow you to get it, then there's nothing more I can do for you.

No, you haven't told me what it is. The military holds itself to a different standard than the rest of society. You guys are disciplined, honorable, courageous, and feel a deep sense of duty with respect to your service. No, I'm not laughing or being sarcastic.

What with that being the case, you need to explain why it is that gays serving openly would affect unit cohesion.

Simply saying "that's how society is" doesn't cut it. When you guys sign up, you get torn down and rebuilt from the ground up into something better than a slave to your prejudices, or so I thought.

That's why this subject makes me so mad, I expect better of you guys, and I want to know why you can't seem to deliver!
 
What makes you think that the NCO corps is endorsing the harassment of gays?

I would tend to think it is unlikely that this is happening. First off the NCO corps is not some unified entity, and secondly, my experience is that most NCO's don't have patients with anything disrupting getting the job done, and that would include harassment of people.
 
Dealing with possible inter-unit romatic relationships in a combat unit (note I said combat) is not something that our military has much experience with, administratively.

So then why isn't the issue "you can be gay, but you can't do your colleagues," rather than "you can't serve and be openly gay" or "you can't serve if you're gay?"
 
Stop deflecting -- if it isn't a professionalism issue that would have openly serving gays disrupting unit choesion, what is it?

What do you think it is? Is it prejudice and a lack of professionalism? If so, what do you propose we do to change that?
 
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